The Ravenwing of Salamander 2500pts Ard boys semi's?

[Dbrinson]

Ok ran a armored guard list for the prelims and found that yes i stomped the field. now time to work for semi's i could always run my other list but i thought about looking into new prospects.
I am thinking fast and the ability to combat squad and making my shots counts.

Vulkan Heston 190

Captian on a bike with a relic blade 160ish

3 squad of
8 marines on bikes with attack bike.
melta gun flamer and multi melta on attack bike
serg carrying power weapon or fist

1- 10 man squad in drop pod MM and Flamer

2x dreadnought MM CCW HF EA
Drop pods

3 landspeeders HF MM

1x term assault squad 3x TH and 2x LC
Land Raider Crusader MM EA


I plan on combat squad when need to get the scoring units but basically my 1 one advance and shoot with 2 dreads on top of them. if i combat squad my bikes the the attack bike squad will shoot and other part turbo boost.

Cons
No long Range Anti-tank
Not a lot of unit
Speeder die easy

Pros
Fast list
Twin Linked melta and flamers
T5 scoring units

[joescalise]

I think you are going to need more miniatures then that, one good turn of shooting from your enemy and you could be out of it.

[Dbrinson]

yeah low model count is a draw back. but i thought bout dropping one bike squa to buy more dudes.

[Tynskel]

I like taking all TH+SS Terms with Vulkan attached. Vulkan's got the speed (I5), 4 attacks on the charge, and re-rolls to hit with one attack and one wound. He has the 3+ invul. He also has the re-roll to wound Hv Flamer, which will kill gribblies that the lightning claw guys would be killing.


As for the bikes: you should hack 'em down to 5 bikes each with an attached Attack Bike. You still get all the advantages of claiming bikes. But you will save 75 points per squad (225). That's enough for:

185 Tactical Squad
10 Marines, Power Weapon, Flamer, Multi-Melta
40 Dedicated Transport: Razorback

It doesn't really add more marines than before, but this adds more flexibility to your list- more so than combat squads for the bikes.

You could take a rhino, then you have a nice fat 10 man squad-- those still take a decent amount of firepower to disable.

[Dbrinson]

Well good thought i like your view on the terms. i orignally thought running the squads down to 5 with the attack bike but then i figured with a little good judgement while playing i could change the list to running less kps or more scoring units and maybe even running of the bikes in reserve and the melta, flamer and attack bike foward and then have something saved for later or wait (can you do that with combat squads?)

[Tynskel]

Well good thought i like your view on the terms. i orignally thought running the squads down to 5 with the attack bike but then i figured with a little good judgement while playing i could change the list to running less kps or more scoring units and maybe even running of the bikes in reserve and the melta, flamer and attack bike foward and then have something saved for later or wait (can you do that with combat squads?)

hehehe... Depends. There is a whole thread on combat squads.

Background: Deploy is an undefined word in the 40k Rulebook

2 Camps:

1) Does not matter what 'deploy' means-- use as a trigger word.
RAI-- the players are choosing to ignore the context of the use of the word 'deploy'.

2) The context of 'deploy' changes between 'set-up' and 'in-game'. The differences are between tactical and strategic. In both cases, 'deploy' is still a trigger word, but it has inherently different applications. Combat Squads refers to the strategic definition of deploy (no linkage to tactical definitions), which is only used during the 'Deploy Forces' phase of the game (set-up). Read pages 86-94 (strategic use of deploy), p. 11-14 and p. 94-95 (tactical use of deploy). Combat Squads has an exception, but the exception is coherent with the exception to the 'in-game' use of deploy in reference to immobile units in reserve.
RAW-- the players are choosing to use the context of the use of the word 'deploy'.

[Dbrinson]

so i guess make a few changes with the terms and start play testing. that will be my deciding factor if to run the 5 or 8 man squads of bikes.

[Tynskel]

good

I really like Vulkan with TH+SS Termies... basically a personal bodyguard.

If you are really nuts about fire and Meltas, like me, I'd put them in a LR Redeemer with ex armor and Multi-melta.

[Tynskel]

doing some thinkin'

Maybe taking Kahn might be worth while-- not for his chapter tactics (use vulkan's), but for the Hit n' Run and Furious Charge. He's quite good.

Otherwise, a Storm Shield might be in good order for your bike captain. Then he can run on his own, if he needs to. I have seen many a game where the last 2 turns, the bike captain breaks off and zooms around with a thunder hammer just mucking up stragglers.

One other suggestion: if don't want to take khan, but you are willing to spend the points:

205 Captain Biker
Captain, Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Hellfire Rounds, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Bike

This guy can do whatever. Or ditch the Grenade Launcher and Hellfire rounds for Artificer Armor. That's wicked.

Last thing- I think you should give ya bike captain a thunder hammer-- he'll get a re-roll to hit!

[Dbrinson]

my first thought was TH do it being mastercrafted with hestan i i also considered khan at 205 as well but i was thinkin that was a lot of points for 2 hqs but might be worth it. will put that in the notes for play testing this weekend

[Nikephoros]

Only one Land Raider is almost always a bad idea.

This seems like you're taking the best parts of 3 different lists and mashing them together. Try to refine the concept a bit more into a list that has a bit more synergy.

But if you want to keep the list here is my advice:

1. Drop the power weapons/fists in the bike sarges. Unnecessary, these guys shouldnt be in assaults.
2. tac squad in drop pod should be Sternguard with some heavy flamers and some combi meltas. The bike squads can combat squad in objective missions if you're worried about a lack of troops.
3. The terminators should be all TH/SS. Make the squad 10 Man and ditch the Land Raider. They can walk across the board and soak firepower.
4. Ditch the Dreds entirely.
5. Another 3 Speeders, and make the 3 squadrons of 2 each.

[wittdooley]

I hate this list b/c the Sallies would never use this many bikes.

[Dbrinson]

well it is not is the spirit of the salamanders to use a bunch of bikes or speeders. trust me i have heard that before. but it is more along the lines of what marine list would deal with my opponents. i have around 70,000 + pts in all of my armies. all imperial but it is picking the select few in a 2500 pts games to make the best list possible. its ard boyz time to be nasty. other than that i am not scared to field some of my dark angels or whitescars along with sallies. i just do what it takes to win the mission. i am not a arrogant a** or and push good sportsmanship but it is a competition and let it be that. no place for the fluffy casual player.

[Tynskel]

I wouldn't be so quick to state the Salamanders would not use a bike force. Space Marines are very flexible, and they will adapt if their tactics are not working.

Blood Angels are a really good example of this. They follow Codex Astartes, however, they will adapt to the situation, and take advantage of Jump Troops when possible. The ultimate goal is to conquer your enemies and protect the Imperium.

I see this list as an extension of this philosophy. Salamanders having to deal with an armored foe that vastly outnumbers them. Lighting Quick raids and still packing the meltas/flamers.

[wittdooley]

I wouldn't be so quick to state the Salamanders would not use a bike force. Space Marines are very flexible, and they will adapt if their tactics are not working.

Blood Angels are a really good example of this. They follow Codex Astartes, however, they will adapt to the situation, and take advantage of Jump Troops when possible. The ultimate goal is to conquer your enemies and protect the Imperium.

I see this list as an extension of this philosophy. Salamanders having to deal with an armored foe that vastly outnumbers them. Lighting Quick raids and still packing the meltas/flamers.

I mean, I guess you're right, other than the fact that all the fluff on the Salamanders makes it pretty clear they rarely use Bikes or Speeders because the gravity on Nocturne is prohibitive of the requisite training.

[Nikephoros]

I like how this is a discussion of a 'ard boyz list and it's turned into fluff talk. Way to help the guy out with that high level criticism.

[Tynskel]

I like how this is a discussion of a 'ard boyz list and it's turned into fluff talk. Way to help the guy out with that high level criticism.

I already gave my strategic advice. I was now just showing how you could still create a theme around the list.

'Ard Boyz may be about smashy smashy--- but it always looks good to do it in style.

[Dbrinson]

thanks all play gonna be play testing this weekend will bring back the results.

[Dbrinson]

this list blowed against blood angels so i am gonna can it since that is the flavor of the month back to the drawing board. still have the army i stomped my prelims with so i might just work on improving it

[Tynskel]

I can see that happening; taking a finesse army against a finesse army that's better at the finesse.

However, I can imagine that it wouldn't be too hard to modify. Personally, I think mortis dreads are a good addition to a bike army.

125 Mortis Dreadnought
Dreadnought, 2 Twin-Linked Autocannons
35 Drop Pod

You can have them land far away from your opponent, up close, or drop the pod separately. Personally, I like to drop with the pod at a medium range. Use the Pod to grant 4+ cover saves, and shoot between the open spaces, preventing your opponent from getting the cover saves. Then shoot side armor. 4 Twin-Linked Autocannon shots ~40% chance of popping (destroying) armor 11. Not bad.

Another Adjustment:

Drop one bike squad-- you will still have 2 full bike squads and a tactical squad, all of which can combat squad and claim.

That's 280 points

Take:
140 Vindicator
Extra Armor, Siege Shield
120 Predator Destructor
Lascannon Sponsons

This should give you enough points to change the 2 dreads into mortis.
Overall, this adds some long range firepower to your bike army (something your list lacks) and gives you some targets for those big guns other than your bikes. A Predator, Land Raider, Vindicator, and 2 Mortis Dreads will draw away a lot of Hv Weapons fire.

BTW, did you try a Thunder Hammer on your Bike Captain?

[Dbrinson]

I ran Khan in the list and the speeders. Playing against the BA really hurt. I have conidered dropping of the bike squads and changing khan but the list made me sick. it seemed that on paper it might work but with the low model count it sucked against anything close combat. after the fight i wish i took the vindicators because if i had one i had everything of there bunch up after dying so i would quite literaly killed his whole army. i wasn't planning on that much of an assault i might try v2.0 and figure up on the rewrite. mortis dreads never tried but i can see where the fire power would come in. and you tri-las predator be better if i could make up the point or is the destructor have a reason?

[Tynskel]

I like Predator Annihilators, but I was not trying to muck around with your list, just streamline- I saw that one bike squad could get you both a vindicator and pred destructor.

Predator Annihilators are scary, but the 45 points for the turret can be a deterrent in itself. All depends on the tactics and list whether I take the Annihilator or the 'Poor Man's Annihilator' (Destructor with Lascannon Sponsons).

As for tactics, people see 3 Lascannons and start to freak out (especially over the twin-linked). If you are trying to draw fire away from your bikes, the Annihilator does a good job (especially with the other tanks too).


I can't help but think that having some power weapons/fists in the squads would be helpful-- especially against something like Blood Angels. Bikes can survive a round of CC, but they need to be able to get out of CC.

[Dbrinson]

well if i take the mortis dreads and the the vindicator stuff and the predators and then i am considering dropping vulkan because of the not enough melta and flamer worth it in my opinion. maybe i will rethink the list a little for a all around better overhaul.

[Tynskel]

That's not true-- you still have many meltas and flamers in the list. Don't forget, you have the Thunder Hammers too. All of which benefit from vulkan.