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Kazzigum
05-24-2010, 09:06 PM
So I just got the new White Dwarf today and while flipping through it, I came accross some advertisements regarding Website content to the Games Workshop website. In addition to the truck loads of datasheets supposed to be associated with the new Spearhead, it mentions that both the Witchhunters and Daemonhunters codexes will be uploaded as free PDFs.

So, why would they do this? Especially if they intend to release the new Grey Nights or Daemonhunters in only a couple months? Will they be updated? Doubtful. Just trying to figure out what this means for the Inquisition.

Nabterayl
05-24-2010, 09:17 PM
Perhaps simply because they wish to stop printing the books?

Necrosis
05-24-2010, 09:21 PM
They ran out of codex's (cause they will be updating them soon, as in around one year give or take several months) so they are putting them online now until they release the new verisions.

Kazzigum
05-24-2010, 09:24 PM
They ran out of codex's (cause they will be updating them soon, as in around one year give or take several months) so they are putting them online now until they release the new verisions.

Maybe, but have they ever done this before? I can't remember them doing so. Seems a little out of character. Again, not sure what it means. :confused:

Nabterayl
05-24-2010, 09:28 PM
It does seem odd, yeah. I'm just speculating, but that's all I can think of.

Spleen_stealer
05-24-2010, 09:30 PM
speaking of updating the codex before posting it, Have any of you modified your codex for the current eddition point costs?

example? Like the cheaper exorcists in the forge world books, or changing the cost of the rhino to be inline with SM/IG?

if you have anyone give you any issues over it?

Brass Scorpion
05-24-2010, 09:35 PM
So, why would they do this? Especially if they intend to release the new Grey Nights or Daemonhunters in only a couple months? Will they be updated? Doubtful. Just trying to figure out what this means for the Inquisition.Clearly, it's going to be more than "a couple months" till a new Grey Knights Codex gets published. It may be more like 6 months or more. The current Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters Codex books went out of print months ago around December and existing copies sold off till they were gone. The PDF will allow people who want to jump in on those armies now to do so without having to wait for the new books.

Kazzigum
05-24-2010, 09:35 PM
Nah, I just use them as they are. Though I admit that I tend to steer away from rhinos as a result. Currently working on my Guard with both Inquisiton allies as a Witch Heretick Cult army right now. A Voodoo undead cult. They suck, but they look good.

DarkLink
05-24-2010, 11:41 PM
Maybe, but have they ever done this before? I can't remember them doing so. Seems a little out of character. Again, not sure what it means. :confused:

The books have been up on I think the french site as pdfs for quite some time now. This isn't anything new, and doesn't really change the expectations for a new GK codex at the end of the year, or the beginning of next year.

Really, this is a logical move. The codices will be updated in the foreseeable future, so there's no point in doing another print run. So as a stopgap measure, they pdf-ify them.

DadExtraordinaire
05-25-2010, 02:42 AM
I don't quite understand all this hoo ha around the daemon hunters and witch hunters dexes going to PDF. I see this has a very positive step for those of us with the armies currently and for those who wish to venture into a Daemon / withc hunters army until the new books come out. Remember the BA PDF dex? lots of hoo ha then and guess what? we actually used the dex until the release of the actual book with some excellent articles and lists around the PDF (ala Morticon on BolterandChainsword) and when the new dex book came out models to boot too! :)

To be honest GW are losing money on this as they could have continued printing the current books and just put up a "cut and paste" on the GW site. GW had already paid for the cost of printing the books eons ago and to continue to print them would have have equated to the square root of didly squat in terms of cost but enough pm to make them smile. (sorry last sentence is aimed at all those peeps who seem to think they know how to run a £100mil TO business......!) :D

If the upload the dexes to site with bringing them in line with 5th edition, then great stuff, if they up load them with no alignment ot 5th then hmmm that is slightly worrying as it will have been on oversight.;)

DrLove42
05-25-2010, 04:00 AM
Interesting theory that just popped into my mind...does it actually say the OLD demon/withc hunters? Or are the idea of inquisition beating the DE true?

pgmason
05-25-2010, 04:45 AM
Its probably just a case of it not being worthwhile doing another print run as they don't want to get left with stock they can't sell. Printing is very expensive if you do small runs, and much cheaper if you do big ones. Why print say 5,000 copies if you're only going to sell a few hundred before the books are replaced? Better to put them online and let people have access to them at next to no cost - after all, GW makes most profit on minis not books, and if they can get the codex for free, it might encourage more people to pick up some of the minis.

Brass Scorpion
05-25-2010, 09:22 AM
Its ... just a case of it not being worthwhile doing another print run as they don't want to get left with stock they can't sell. Printing is very expensive if you do small runs, and much cheaper if you do big ones. Why print say 5,000 copies if you're only going to sell a few hundred before the books are replaced?Absolutely.

R3con
05-25-2010, 09:31 AM
To me this is great news, I've been worried about the deteriorating status of my Witch Hunters Codex. This will allow me to keep my original at home and take a PDF version to tournaments without fear.

Lerra
05-25-2010, 09:32 AM
For all we know, it may be GW's new policy to put out-of-date codices online when the new version is about to be released. It wouldn't be a bad idea - it allows people to read up on the fluff and get interested in the army before the new codex and models are released.

DarkLink
05-25-2010, 09:54 AM
Interesting theory that just popped into my mind...does it actually say the OLD demon/withc hunters? Or are the idea of inquisition beating the DE true?

Old.

Melissia
05-25-2010, 10:00 AM
Old, thank the Emperor. PDF codices from GW have always been made of fail.

davel
05-25-2010, 10:32 AM
A word of warning there is a bit of a lag between subscribed white dwarfs anounce an online article and it appearing on web site

dave l

Melissia
05-25-2010, 10:34 AM
I don't think most of us care either way...

Necrosis
05-25-2010, 11:46 AM
speaking of updating the codex before posting it, Have any of you modified your codex for the current eddition point costs?

example? Like the cheaper exorcists in the forge world books, or changing the cost of the rhino to be inline with SM/IG?

if you have anyone give you any issues over it?

I never heard of a cheaper exorcist. I've heard of cheaper rhinos and people don't mind when I use them.

Aeddon
05-25-2010, 02:23 PM
I don't quite understand all this hoo ha around the daemon hunters and witch hunters dexes going to PDF... Remember the BA PDF dex?

Yes, in fact I still retain a copy of the BA PDF codex (here-after to be referred to as "GW's biggest epic fail of all time"). It was a half-hearted effort and generally looked down upon. Thing is, we're not even getting any sort of update, it's just being re-released as a PDF. I see nothing good in this and everything wrong with it.

DadExtraordinaire
05-25-2010, 02:57 PM
Yes, in fact I still retain a copy of the BA PDF codex (here-after to be referred to as "GW's biggest epic fail of all time"). It was a half-hearted effort and generally looked down upon. Thing is, we're not even getting any sort of update, it's just being re-released as a PDF. I see nothing good in this and everything wrong with it.

I'm not knocking ppl over their frustrations, I just think ppl need to give GW a bit of respect. They will provide a decent DHunter / WHunter codex when it comes out and I will be very happy when they do, in the mean time I will be more than happy with an FAQed for 5th edn PDF.....

I can also understand ppls impressions of the BA PDF dex when it was first released, as those of us who were BA players (or wanted to play BA) were hoping for a proper dex (not soon after the DA dex) but were dissapointed to find it was only going to be a PDF. However, although the PDF wasn't as good as other full dexes out there, I found I was able to play a fairly half decent army without too much issues. When the SM dex came out it was then ppl realised what could have been for the BA. Now, GW have brought the BA dex out and it is a very interesting piece of work.

I am hoping for the short term they update the Daemons and Witchhunters in line with 5th edn even if its just through a FAQ exercise within the PDF that would help for some claringly obvious issues, and certainly would allow me to field my SOB's and GK's without having to go through any RAW vs RAI....

BTW I still have my BA PDF to compare against my BA dex.....it's interesting how my choices have now increased and provided me with opportunites to play a slightly different army....I think when this happens this can only be good for us players of W40K....

As for the cost of printing a codex, it has dropped considerably over the past 5 to 6 years as well as where it can be printed. This too has fluctated between China, Poland, Spain, Uk etc and will continue to do so.....as the price per print changes in each country (of course they will have to weigh up the pro's and con's of distance and therefore cost of freight....) etc.

Aeddon
05-25-2010, 06:31 PM
I realize what the economical reasons would be for making a PDF codex but sorry, it just seems to me like GW giving DH and WH players the bird.

thecactusman17
05-26-2010, 12:32 AM
I fail to understand what people here are complaining about. Really. GW makes one of the best codices in the game (Witch Hunters) free and people start complaining?

I could understand if this was about them pulling the models. But making the decade old codex free is somehow WORSE than reprinting it at high cost for no gain?

Seiously guys, grow up.

DadExtraordinaire
05-26-2010, 03:12 AM
I fail to understand what people here are complaining about. Really. GW makes one of the best codices in the game (Witch Hunters) free and people start complaining?

I could understand if this was about them pulling the models. But making the decade old codex free is somehow WORSE than reprinting it at high cost for no gain?

Seiously guys, grow up.

I concur thecactusman17, there is no need for the doom saying and nay saying..... we can always burn them as herectics if they persist ;)

Melissia
05-26-2010, 08:39 AM
I fail to understand what people here are complaining about. Really. GW makes one of the best codices in the game (Witch Hunters) free and people start complaining?

I could understand if this was about them pulling the models. But making the decade old codex free is somehow WORSE than reprinting it at high cost for no gain?

Seiously guys, grow up.


No, Codex: Witch Hunters is crap.

-- The fluff section is hideously short and split between two factions (Inquisition and Sisters) which are even by C:WH's admission only marginally linked. There's no true history, barely any examples of anything they've done, no examples of their modus operandi, and all in all the fluff section is just fail. And there's almost no fluff for the Ecclesiarchy at all! No mention of how the Ecclesiarchy started, no mention of the variations within the Imperial Cult, no mention of the feuds the Imperial cult may or may not have with various Marine chapters, supposedly might have with the Mechanicus, and so on.

-The units section is internally unbalanced and split between THREE factions (Sisters, Ecclesiarchy, and Inquisition) two of which are uncompetitive and none of them have synergy with each other. The Inquisition section was copied almost directly from Codex: Daemonhunters and doesn't fit in with the rest of the codex. The Ecclesiarchy section is badly balanced, and only marginally fits in with the rest of the codex-- they, for some godforsaken reason, removed the Frateris Militia... WHY? ****ed if I know. The Sisters section is the only section that remains competitive, but even it has its own problems, such as close combat veterans not being armed with BP+CCW, Dominions costing too much, and Retributors being difficult to actually place in the army list (they have to compete with Exorcists after all).

-Even the PAINTING section is bad. There's just as many frakking MARINE variant painting schemes shown in the various group shots as there are Sisters variants shown (apparently their painter refuses to paint anything other than Order of Our Martyred Lady and the Order of the Sacred Rose). There is no *******ed place for ULTRAMARINES in my Sisters codex, and it's insulting that they're present.



The only reason I even bother to use it is because it is where my Sisters are, even if they add some ****ty Inquisition units stuffed in too. This is by no means the best codex, it doesn't even ****ing QUALIFY as a good codex.

MadCowCrazy
05-26-2010, 12:21 PM
Clap clap clap, well said :D

Sums it up pretty nicely.

thecactusman17
05-26-2010, 01:20 PM
No, Codex: Witch Hunters is crap.

-- The fluff section is hideously short and split between two factions (Inquisition and Sisters) which are even by C:WH's admission only marginally linked. There's no true history, barely any examples of anything they've done, no examples of their modus operandi, and all in all the fluff section is just fail. And there's almost no fluff for the Ecclesiarchy at all! No mention of how the Ecclesiarchy started, no mention of the variations within the Imperial Cult, no mention of the feuds the Imperial cult may or may not have with various Marine chapters, supposedly might have with the Mechanicus, and so on.

-The units section is internally unbalanced and split between THREE factions (Sisters, Ecclesiarchy, and Inquisition) two of which are uncompetitive and none of them have synergy with each other. The Inquisition section was copied almost directly from Codex: Daemonhunters and doesn't fit in with the rest of the codex. The Ecclesiarchy section is badly balanced, and only marginally fits in with the rest of the codex-- they, for some godforsaken reason, removed the Frateris Militia... WHY? ****ed if I know. The Sisters section is the only section that remains competitive, but even it has its own problems, such as close combat veterans not being armed with BP+CCW, Dominions costing too much, and Retributors being difficult to actually place in the army list (they have to compete with Exorcists after all).

-Even the PAINTING section is bad. There's just as many frakking MARINE variant painting schemes shown in the various group shots as there are Sisters variants shown (apparently their painter refuses to paint anything other than Order of Our Martyred Lady and the Order of the Sacred Rose). There is no *******ed place for ULTRAMARINES in my Sisters codex, and it's insulting that they're present.



The only reason I even bother to use it is because it is where my Sisters are, even if they add some ****ty Inquisition units stuffed in too. This is by no means the best codex, it doesn't even ****ing QUALIFY as a good codex.

Well even better then. Now you dont have to pay for a codex you obviously hate. Now stop whining.

Melissia
05-26-2010, 01:50 PM
No.

DarkLink
05-26-2010, 05:55 PM
Well even better then. Now you dont have to pay for a codex you obviously hate. Now stop whining.

Her point, which you seem to be missing, is that a free codex she doesn't like isn't what she wants (nor what any of the other Sisters players want).

She wants a new, good codex. Something Sisters players have been waiting for for a very long time.

Her complaint is that this, for her, is a pointless move on GW's part.


At least, that's what I'm getting.

Kazzigum
05-26-2010, 10:23 PM
It's funny you should say all that. While I have nothing against Knights or Sisters, neither really appeals that much to me. For me, its all about the Inquisitors and the Inquisition. Those are my favorite parts of both codexes. Without the Inquisition, I'm not interested in them updating either.

Melissia
05-26-2010, 10:27 PM
So it sounds like you'd be favoring an Inquisition codex. I'm fine with that. Leave my Sisters out of it-- you don't care about them anyway so it's not like you'd miss them.

Sister Rosette Soulknyt
05-26-2010, 10:41 PM
A crapy ill-concieved, poorly written and sh#@$y codex that the C:WH is exactly that regardless how GW made it out to be, and a Free online download version is that with a pink ribbon on it,
Its stilll the crapy ill-concieved, poorly written and sh#@$y codex that the C:WH is. Just free thats all.

What we want is not a free copy of the same thing, we Want a brand new extremely well written, more fluff, no Inquisition, no pIcs of SM's, more painting guuides, better rules, new units, better characters and so much more, not a rehab version for free.

DarkLink
05-26-2010, 10:41 PM
Luckily for you, there is a posibility there will be some form of Inquisitorial expansion/codex, separate from GKs and Sisters.


So it sounds like you'd be favoring an Inquisition codex. I'm fine with that. Leave my Sisters out of it-- you don't care about them anyway so it's not like you'd miss them.

Same for my Grey Knights. I play Grey Knights because Grey Knights are awesome. I don't want some glorified detective tagging along unless I feel like it.

Kazzigum
05-26-2010, 10:47 PM
So it sounds like you'd be favoring an Inquisition codex. I'm fine with that. Leave my Sisters out of it-- you don't care about them anyway so it's not like you'd miss them.

Yeah, I'd be okay with that. But ... we both know that's not what's gonna happen. Looking at GW's track record the last few years, they never drop troop types. They add, but they don't drop. And, though I'm sure it would make many Sisters players happy to drop the Inquisition out, or even just run them completely solo, I've a feeling that GW has 'decided' that they're all linked -- if not back then, then now (and the old days of what's written is not usually a good indicator -- orks once were armed with bolters accross the board, and they're never going back to that).

Of course, having said all that, I suppose it is possible that GW would create codexes for simply Knights and Sisters and drop the Inquistion out entirely. Truth be told, part of me fears this. Still, I think that that is unlikely. Were they to go that route, I think they would be pdf mini dexes -- and we saw how well that went down last time.

eldargal
05-27-2010, 12:13 AM
From what most of the reliable rumourmongers have said, GK and SoB will be getting their own codex and Inquisition will be downplayedt. I would imagine Inquisitors and such would still be in the GK codex as GK are part of the inquisition, whereas SoB only have an agreement to work with the Ordo Hereticus. I wouldn't object to some kind of optional Inquisition allies section in a SoB, but I'd rather Inquisition be kept out of an Ecclesiarchal army altogether.


Yeah, I'd be okay with that. But ... we both know that's not what's gonna happen. Looking at GW's track record the last few years, they never drop troop types. They add, but they don't drop. And, though I'm sure it would make many Sisters players happy to drop the Inquisition out, or even just run them completely solo, I've a feeling that GW has 'decided' that they're all linked -- if not back then, then now (and the old days of what's written is not usually a good indicator -- orks once were armed with bolters accross the board, and they're never going back to that).

Of course, having said all that, I suppose it is possible that GW would create codexes for simply Knights and Sisters and drop the Inquistion out entirely. Truth be told, part of me fears this. Still, I think that that is unlikely. Were they to go that route, I think they would be pdf mini dexes -- and we saw how well that went down last time.

Aeddon
05-27-2010, 08:04 AM
Looking at GW's track record the last few years, they never drop troop types.
If that was true than my Space Wolves would be accompanied by a Leman Russ right now. Calling shenanigans on that one.

You are right though in that GW has no problem changing the fluff to come in line with whatever they feel like putting in a codex. If the =][= does appear in the new Sisters codex I'm sure that they will give plent of "reasons" why (don't mind the man behind the curtain now...)

Fizzics
05-27-2010, 10:14 AM
Aight, I have looked. Perhaps I am not as internet savvy as I thought, but I can't find where this thing has been uploaded to any GW site. Sure there are the scanned copies around, but all this talk about having the codex uploaded.

Someone provide a link, so we can all believe it.

DarkLink
05-27-2010, 11:09 AM
Aight, I have looked. Perhaps I am not as internet savvy as I thought, but I can't find where this thing has been uploaded to any GW site. Sure there are the scanned copies around, but all this talk about having the codex uploaded.

Someone provide a link, so we can all believe it.

GW's not exactly timely about stuff like this. It was announced officially in WD (no way to link to that), so it will happen.

Artein
05-27-2010, 01:49 PM
Someone provide a link, so we can all believe it.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=89971&d=1274898399

gwensdad
05-27-2010, 02:13 PM
Has anybody also noted that the Spearhead formations are supposed to be up too, but aren't. (and where's the thread to talk about that?)

Kazzigum
05-28-2010, 02:24 AM
If that was true than my Space Wolves would be accompanied by a Leman Russ right now. Calling shenanigans on that one.

You are right though in that GW has no problem changing the fluff to come in line with whatever they feel like putting in a codex. If the =][= does appear in the new Sisters codex I'm sure that they will give plent of "reasons" why (don't mind the man behind the curtain now...)

But that's not entirely my point. Guard still have Leman Russes. The troop type has not been dropped, just retconned so that marines should not have a guard vehicle just because it was named after their leader...

DarkLink
05-28-2010, 02:54 PM
Has anybody also noted that the Spearhead formations are supposed to be up too, but aren't. (and where's the thread to talk about that?)

They're up now. Took, what, two whole days?

Patience is a virtue:p

gwensdad
05-28-2010, 04:42 PM
They're up now. Took, what, two whole days?

Patience is a virtue:p

I know, printed it out, made an army, am sitting at the game store....

...and everyone is playing Talisman. This is pissing me off.

DarkLink
05-28-2010, 04:53 PM
I know, printed it out, made an army, am sitting at the game store....

...and everyone is playing Talisman. This is pissing me off.

Heh, bummer.

Personally, I hope someone in my group has the WD. GW didn't see fit to post the rules for free, just the formations. Meaning you really do have to buy WD to play it. Which sucks, because I'm not going to buy WD.

Ah, well, if I can figure out the rules (or get close enough) by surfing the internet, then I might play anyways.

Dionysus
05-28-2010, 05:15 PM
where on their site are they?

gwensdad
05-28-2010, 05:17 PM
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/astronomican.jsp

(in the US)

Dionysus
05-28-2010, 06:32 PM
Theres spearhead, but where are the Inquisition dexs?

gwensdad
05-28-2010, 09:00 PM
May still have to wait a day or 3 in the US for the Codexes. They appear to be on some of the foreign language sites, but not the US.


(and the head of the 40K league complained that no one wanted to play 40K. HELLO! I WAS RIGHT THERE! Because I wasn't there by 5:30 I don't count, so I told him not to count on me on Fridays for any 40K games.)

RocketRollRebel
05-28-2010, 10:40 PM
Oh so its just a reprint of the in PDF form? I already have them both and I was honestly almost hoping that they were getting a "hold ya over" 'dex like WoC had for a year. Ok it would probably suck but I was just very curious to see it haha

DarkLink
05-29-2010, 12:21 AM
May still have to wait a day or 3 in the US for the Codexes. They appear to be on some of the foreign language sites, but not the US.

Those have been there for a very long time.


Oh so its just a reprint of the in PDF form?

Yes, though there may be some very minor edits.

mysterex
05-29-2010, 03:10 AM
Yes, though there may be some very minor edits.

Perhaps, but given that when they re-released the Lost & the Damned on line a while back it remained incompatible with the the CSM codex (and so unplayable), I think that it's unlikely.

Grabnutz
05-29-2010, 04:13 AM
OK, I began to lose the will to live about halfway through all this...

Let's look at it logically from GW's point of view. These two codicies cover two main figure ranges: Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle. Both are popular, but not that popular. So how can they get people to try them out?

Well how many of us would fork out for the cost of a Codex before we could be sure it was worth the moolah? I know I wouldn't. I beg, borrow or even download a copy first to read. Then I go to a shop (independent if there's one locally) and buy it.

So making the old codex's available online makes some sense.

There is another possibility though - the competition. Many of GW's competitors, and I'm talking Figure companies have caught up with GW's technilogical edge, thanks to plastics moulding companies like Renedra. They also have scupltors whose prowess equals and even exceeds that of the fabled design studio.

Many of these competitors have moved their accompanying rule sets to PDF, and in quite a few cases are providing them completely free. Now none of them can compete in the sheer amount of fluff GW has put out, but most of them are making a pretty good job at creating their own worlds/galaxies.

So perhaps the placing of these two codices on their site as PDF's is a market test. If enough people download them it may influence future publication policy. Also, as many of us know (oh yes you do) you can get just about anything GW has published online, for free, from numerous Torrent sites.

There must come a point when downloading content and rules will overwhelm print sales and only those who go to sanctioned tournaments will be willing to pay out for a print copy.

At the end of the day GW is a miniatures company. It's profits come from metal and plastic, not perfect bound pamphlets. So where will they go now?

Melissia
05-29-2010, 07:13 AM
OK, I began to lose the will to live about halfway through all this...

Let's look at it logically from GW's point of view. These two codicies cover two main figure ranges: Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle. Both are popular, but not that popular. So how can they get people to try them out?

By increasing the price on the miniatures so that they're higher than normal miniatures?

This is GW we're talking about. Not a logical company.

Grabnutz
05-29-2010, 07:57 AM
Hi Melissia,

GW are in an invidious position:
1. Their cost base is rising, just like it is for all businesses.
2. Their market share is being eroded by all the internet-based retailers, including a host of online retailers who are passing on much of their GW trader discounts to their customers.
3. People are not spending as much due to the economic crisis.
4. They have very high overheads in their huge retail footprint and design costs.
5. They cannot reduce their design costs due to the expectations of their customer-base.
6. Most of their stores run on a skeleton staff as it is, on low wages (hobbyists are cheap) for long hours.
7. Most of their sales come through the stores, so reducing the number will impact disproportionately on their sales.
8. They have many competitors who, though smaller, will leap at any chance to take market share should GW make a mistake.

In this position is it any surprise that they need to raise their prices? You will also notice that the release schedule includes:
1. Spearhead, which like Apocalypse before it, encourages dedicated hobbyists to buy more expensive vehicles, and
2. WFB 8th Edition. New core rulebooks tend to sell well because everyone needs the core rules to play.

GW is a giant that has brought many of us years of pleasure and frustration in equal measure. I do hope it survives.

Madness
05-29-2010, 08:47 AM
Here's how they fix it:
1. close all the gw-only stores, we don't need it as a retail outlet (there are better options), and getting game advice by someone who sell games is a huge conflict of intrests, meaning they won't point me in the direction of what I'd like most, but what they want me to buy
2. endorse gaming clubs with token freebies for symbolic fees, foster their growth, they will promote your game (if your game is good) for you and it surely costs less than keeping a store that sells only a single line of products
3. publish rules online
4. stop being a ***ch about your IP and allow people to work for you, for free by making fanstuff.
5. publicly endorse the decent fanstuff and tolerate the rest
6. print miniatures locally on demand (stocking and waste more than offsets the multiple facilities cost)
7. promote an infinity of variants of the game, keeping your designers working on multiple angles
8. keep an own wiki to disclose information, but control them so they don't get TOO spoilery, sort of how Guild Wars does
9. keep an own forum with decent moderation, a la MtG
10. work better with your partners so they don't f**k up so often, like the flop WAR appears to be (hello Tzeentch magus summoning nurgling bombs, hello Horror being a ranged unit where a flamer would have done just as good with better fluff) or the inconsistencies in the DH/RT manuals
11. learn from ffg and wizards' business model
12. go back to publishing articles about all the aspects, like strategy applied in general situations and not just 40k, game design, game balance
13. when you publish a single army "thing" give the rules only stuff for free and make people pay for a much larger package, something closer to imperial armour than the current codices.
14. print those on demand too.
15. have multiple models for the same unit even in tank size, there's some wiggle room in the current approach to customizing vehicles, increase that room a little bit. (I.E.: allow people who likes the old fire prism to build it the old way, it shouldn't be too hard to include a couple more bits)

Bottomline, cut costs, give people what they want, profit where you can get a fair margin without too much complaint from the userbase, expand your product line where it doesn't mean insane stocking costs, and read some g***amn Seth Godin.

Also, the quality of scanned pdf never matches the original stuff, japanese codices are a clear example of that.

rbryce
05-29-2010, 09:16 AM
@ madness, closing all the GW only stores due to there being other retailers to fill the gap only works if you have said outside retailers. my nearest non GW store is a toymaster. they dont have gaming tables, due to them selling other things, like toys, model trains and whatnot. my next nearest non GW hobby store closed, as they couldnt keep fiscally viable(in spite of the discount, tables, other ranges), and it was like, 5 doors away from an actual GW(in fact one of the guys running it used to be a GW employee at the store). i dont think point 1 works in practice.

Madness
05-29-2010, 09:24 AM
It worked for a LOOONG time here in Italy. And we're not evil mastermind geniuses at handling retail, in fact we usually suck.

Also, who says you have to play in a store? For instance there's a store I know that has the retail part in a trafficked area with just a couple of tables for Magic and sells stuff ranging from tabletop games to comic books to video-games, and right around the corner in a smaller street there's a larger gaming club that's half endorsed by this store (who donates some stuff) operated by gamers, the store owners pay the associate fee like any other player, and organize stuff, publicize the club in their store, and in return, players go buy stuff from them.

Just because it failed doesn't mean it can't succeed.

Lerra
05-29-2010, 09:30 AM
It depends on the area. My nearest GW store is 9 hours away and there are a dozen FLGSs within a 30 minute drive, each with at least 6 tables. In the US, it seems like a lot of the GW stores are turning into glorified kiosks anyway, with no gaming tables besides a small area for demonstration games.

eldargal
05-29-2010, 09:31 AM
Then there is the fact that every time GW cuts store staff or closes a store everyone nerd rages about it. Theunfortunate thing is that GWs current policies are working, sales and profits are up, debt has been reduced to a fraction of a years profits (was it £200k? I forget) and this is during the econommic unpleasantness. People just like to *****, because everyone is a backseat executive.
A simple rule of thumb, I have found, is this: The more the online community squeals, the better it will be for GWs sales. This is borne out by over a decade of observation.:rolleyes:

rbryce
05-29-2010, 09:31 AM
thats basically what the toymaster does, but a gaming club on 1 day a week in the evening is limiting, especially in a rural area. the only time i can get a game in is at the local GW because of this. most of the fan base is now younger, and kids cant drive just for a game on a school night. for me, GWs problem is not being accessable, which when compared to other mini companies, is their unique selling point, and should be expanded upon more.

Grabnutz
05-29-2010, 10:27 AM
Hi Madness,

Thanks for such a detailed reply. I hope that I can do it justice :)

There is an assumption here that the average customer's experience of GW stores is just retail. To a lot of, especially younger, customers the enthusiasm and helpfulness of the store hobbyists is what brings them into the wargaming hobby.

To an old Grognard like myself I do find the stores uncomfortable, but that is my problem, not theirs.

Something to remember. Most games companies are the full-time employment of half a dozen people at most, plus a few freelance or contract artists and writers. Very few, if any, support as many staff as GW. The success or failure or GW affects thousands of staff and their dependents. Perhaps this is why they often get prissy and over-protective about their IP.

For every genuine fan site that has been given a going over by GW's Lawyers there are a hundred more, a few of which are actually stealing and profiting from GW's IP. GW is not an entertainment megacorp like Sony. It doesn't have the clout or the expertise to effectively fight copyright theft, so they sometimes get it wrong. But I don't blame them for trying.

Their IP is now so large and diverse I'm surprised they can keep as good a handle on it as they do, and that their partners don't make more mistakes honestly.

Whatever GW do, right or wrong, their every word and move is dissected and analyzed by thousands of nerds like us, and many of us are just waiting for them to falter so we can kick them in the goolies. I know, as I've done it from time to time (the last CSM Codex for instance...meh).

But at the end of the day we are so interested and get so incensed because we have grown up with, and love the universe GW has created.

Madness
05-29-2010, 02:26 PM
You're right, the GW stores try to do more than just retail, but the thing is that they are too biased (or are expected to be, some maverick dares to speak different games at times), but that's where the problem lies. You're a business, take care of the business aspects, don't stretch yourself in marketing ploys that should be left to a manifacturer, take care of the retails, follow the local meta and provide what people wants instead of TELLING people what they should want.

Protecting an IP is very simple if you provide an information hub that surpasses in quality the non official ones.

RocketRollRebel
05-29-2010, 03:20 PM
There are about 4 indy gaming stores around me and they all seem to do just fine. Nice thing about them is that they don't need to focus only on GW products so its easier for them to stay afloat and they all have gaming tables and a good crowd. I've only actually been to a GW store once and it was meh.

BattleFront games seems to do a good job their business model and customer relations.

Melissia
05-29-2010, 04:15 PM
the inconsistencies in the DH/RT manuals

WHAT inconsistencies? Dark Heresy is far more consistent than GW is about the 40k fluff.

Papa Nurgle
05-29-2010, 06:07 PM
I'm hoping that they do a 5th edition update...kinda like the Blood Angels Codex that was on the site...that would be cool. If all they do is reprint the existing codices...not cool. Either way, we shall have to wait and see.

Melissia
05-29-2010, 07:53 PM
Actually I hope they DON'T do an update. Because that means it's far more likely the actual codices are going to be released sooner rather htan later (They aren't gonna put in effort into something that's gonna be contradicted soon).

Grabnutz
05-30-2010, 02:58 AM
Perhaps there are codices they could release as free Pdf's, ones that they will never be able to afford to publish in print.

For example; individual legion codices for Chaos Space Marines. They could refer to the main codex, thus giving a much needed marketing push to the print edition. Other ones I can think of include individual Eldar craftworlds, some of the more well known original or first founding loyalist Space Marine chapters, IG Regiments of Reknown - anyone for a dedicated Tallarn or Praetorian Codex?

After all there is a mass of fluff for these less mainstream armies already so it would just be a matter of tying it together and ensuring it fitted with the main codex. If any of them became tournament monsters they could issue free amendments to those that had paid for them.

If they priced these at $1.99/£1.99 they'd fly off the virtual shelves and quickly make their development costs back before the pirates got too busy. I'd personally buy Alpha Legion, Deathguard and Tallarn codices in a heartbeat.

I also think that they are missing a trick with Class A fan products such as the Flylords produce. All they need then is an editor to check the product over, make sure it is not guilty of heresy, and then sell it in Pdf form (again at a very cheap price point), and pay the fan authors a small royalty. This really is money for almost no outlay.

Madness
05-30-2010, 11:00 AM
WHAT inconsistencies? Dark Heresy is far more consistent than GW is about the 40k fluff.

With itself, yes, with the rest of the fluff, not really. Specially when weapons or organizations are involved.

ashnaile
05-30-2010, 11:19 AM
Amazon shops ussually have dh aand witchhuntters codexes, i snagged both of mine form a used bookstore shop on amazon for 13$ shipped, and they were in immaculate condition :)

Necrosis
05-30-2010, 11:44 AM
With itself, yes, with the rest of the fluff, not really. Specially when weapons or organizations are involved.

Mind giving us a few examples to support your claim.

Madness
05-30-2010, 11:47 AM
I'll find some and open another thread k?

Melissia
05-30-2010, 11:56 AM
With itself, yes, with the rest of the fluff, not really. Specially when weapons or organizations are involved.
And yet, it's officially sanctioned and was written by Dan Abnett and Andy Hoare (the latter actually listed as one the primary writer for Ascension even)... I'd say that Dark Heresy is far better fluff than the majority of Black Library books.

thecactusman17
06-05-2010, 02:53 PM
Just want to mention it here: a local blackshirt (Seth at the San Francisco Battle Bunker in Alamo) was discussing rumors of DH/WH releases (bluntly: "I don't know, and those are just rumors") so I asked if he had heard anything from his superiors specific or more detailed about the release of the PDF releases. "Yes I have," he said. "I've been told that they will be releasing at the end of this month (June) or early next month." He offered no other information, and no information on his source other than that this was according to higher level GW staff. I figure it's likely that he and other GW employees have been informed regarding release dates so that they aren't suddenly deluged with fake or pirated codexes at their events this month.

terminus
06-12-2010, 04:44 PM
Well even better then. Now you dont have to pay for a codex you obviously hate. Now stop whining.
You're being a total idiot right there, she was responding to your claim that the C:WH is "one of the best codexes GW ever made", which is a flat-out retarded statement. There's no need to be bitter just because your ignorance has been exposed to the whole world to see.

thecactusman17
06-13-2010, 03:31 AM
You're being a total idiot right there, she was responding to your claim that the C:WH is "one of the best codexes GW ever made", which is a flat-out retarded statement. There's no need to be bitter just because your ignorance has been exposed to the whole world to see.

Really? I was under the impression that "one of the best codexes ever made" is a totally subjective statement. You know, the sort of thing that might change c=from one person to another.

Oh, and welcome to a month ago.

Grabnutz
06-13-2010, 06:10 AM
Miaow Ladies.

Heresy warning: It's only a game.

Melissia
06-13-2010, 06:26 AM
Really? I was under the impression that "one of the best codexes ever made" is a totally subjective statement. You know, the sort of thing that might change c=from one person to another."It's just an opinion" is not a shield to hide behind when you make idiotic remarks. I do not delude myself into believing that all opinions are equal.

Regardless, your post was incredibly douchey and logically incompetent, and I'll leave it at that. If you do wish to discuss it more, PM me.

david5th
06-19-2010, 04:04 AM
"ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS"
- George Orwell, Animal Farm.

Lerra
06-19-2010, 10:20 AM
Just want to mention it here: a local blackshirt (Seth at the San Francisco Battle Bunker in Alamo) was discussing rumors of DH/WH releases (bluntly: "I don't know, and those are just rumors") so I asked if he had heard anything from his superiors specific or more detailed about the release of the PDF releases. "Yes I have," he said. "I've been told that they will be releasing at the end of this month (June) or early next month." He offered no other information, and no information on his source other than that this was according to higher level GW staff. I figure it's likely that he and other GW employees have been informed regarding release dates so that they aren't suddenly deluged with fake or pirated codexes at their events this month.

I really doubt we'd be seeing Grey Knights in either June or July, but I still think we have a chance of seeing an August release alongside the second wave of Daemons. There is a better chance of the codex coming in early 2011, but I wouldn't be too surprised if there was an announcement that they're coming a lot earlier.

thecactusman17
06-19-2010, 12:34 PM
I really doubt we'd be seeing Grey Knights in either June or July, but I still think we have a chance of seeing an August release alongside the second wave of Daemons. There is a better chance of the codex coming in early 2011, but I wouldn't be too surprised if there was an announcement that they're coming a lot earlier.

It's 100% certain that we won't be seeing Grey Knights this June or July, or August for that matter. They would have shown up on the 90 day advance order form that independant retailers get months ago if that was the case. If it's happening this year at all, it's happening no earlier than late October or early November.

UNLESS these new PDF codexes are updated to 5th edition in some way. If that's the case, then there still won't be any new releases in the model range for a few months.

HsojVvad
06-20-2010, 02:58 PM
It's 100% certain that we won't be seeing Grey Knights this June or July, or August for that matter. They would have shown up on the 90 day advance order form that independant retailers get months ago if that was the case. If it's happening this year at all, it's happening no earlier than late October or early November.

UNLESS these new PDF codexes are updated to 5th edition in some way. If that's the case, then there still won't be any new releases in the model range for a few months.

I was going to say something like this. I don't think we will have anything from now till August because we never herd anything official from GW 3 months ahead of release time. So since we havn't herd anything yet from GW, the earliest now is September, but that would be if anything was mentioned in the begining of July, so it looks like we will just have one more 40K release for 2010, unless GW anounces something early in July so by this would give GW something to announce for August for a November release since GW dosn't release anything in December lately.

Also GW could screw with us and not stick with their new patteren and change their mind and do what ever they want, but dosn't look like that is what they do.

Kazzigum
06-23-2010, 07:06 PM
And there you go. It's what I feared (at least for now). Actually, its worse.

Ya know, I try to be understanding, to not be alarmist. But sometimes I think GW IS in FACT run by morons...

thecactusman17
06-24-2010, 02:18 PM
I sent a message to Andy (the guy who writes the "What's New Today" articles like the one that linked everyone to the new dexes). I made clear note of the missing information, how it doesn't match the non-english codexes OR the information in the download pages, and how there was confusion regarding which versions of the codex were now legal. Here's what he wrote back;


I’ve forwarded your concerns onto the Studio. When they get back to me I’ll see what I can do about clearing them up for you.


Kind regards

-Andy

All in less than 12 hours.

Class act, Andy. I and many others look forward to better understanding the new information.