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ashnaile
05-26-2010, 07:49 AM
More info after the list.

Hivefleet OW my face!

Tyranid prime 80
Tyranid prime 80

Doom of malantai /w s'pod 130
2x zoanthropes in s'pod 160
3x hive guard 150

5x tyranid warriors, 4x /w deathspitters 1x venom cannon, all /w 1x scytals 185
19x devourer termgants in a s'pod 230
Tervigon /w adrenal and toxin sacs, catalyst 195

2x Carnifexes /w crushing claws 370
Trygon Prime /w adrenal glands 250
Mawloc 170



Basic idea of this list is a kind of deathstar unit with the 2 primes attached to the carnifex brood, granting them easy access to cover saves.

The main death dealing unit will be the 2 primes /w carnifex brood walking with the tervigon upfield, screened by the warrior brood, who receive fnp from the tervigons catalyst. The tervigon also shouldnt have too hard of a time getting cover hiding behind 2 carnifexes.

As far as major threats go, i have the doom, trygon, mawloc, and the carnifex squad o doom, its a little light on troop choices, but i was planning to have the gants crapped out by the tervi to head back to any objectives in mid/backfield while the super stompy guys go off towards the enemies back objectives. Lategame crapped gants to be used for wrapping to ensure assaults/swarming things like thss termys.

Between the mawloc and doom of malantai the enemies forces should be spread out fairly well (if they know whats good for them lol ...) which will give me a much easier time killing em piecemeal.

I know with 5 deepstriking units a hive tyrant with hive commander would seem almost necessary, but i think the wtfstompy unit is worth the small delay, most of which will be the enemy attempting to kill your deathblob. (heh ... deathblob ... i like that ...)

Thats just a basic idea anyways ... c&c please

Pil
05-26-2010, 08:25 PM
I do not think Primes can join a carnifex brood since they are monstrous creatures. 230 point termagant brood is way to many points invested. I really don't get the list at all, and it looks very easy to table in a 2k point game. Try something with more in your face threat and speed.

Nidz 2000
HQ The Swarmlord & Guard
The Swarmlord
2 Tyrant Guard

Troops 8 Genestealers 190
Broodlord
Scything Talons

Troops 8 Genestealers 190
Broodlord
Scything Talons

Troops 8 Genestealers 190
Broodlord
Scything Talons

Troops 15 Termagants

Troops Tervigon
Crushing Claws
Adrenal Glands
Toxin Sacs
Regeneration
Catalyst

Elites 3 Hive Guard

Elites 3 Zoanthrope

Elites Deathleaper

Heavy Support Trygon
Adrenal Glands
Regeneration

With a list like this you can reserve everything and start coming in on turn 2 on a 3+, and you are able to re-roll your out flank rolls for your stealer broods. If you get really lucky your Trygon will come in turn 2 and your zoanthropes will come in turn 3 so they can come up within 6 inchs of your trygons hole and start lighting up some landraiders or other pesky armour. Tervigon and 15 termagants with a swarmlord and guard backing them up can hold objectives with relative ease especially with hive guard hiding and picking off weak armoured transports. you will have 4 or 5 strong units in your enemies back field so they won't be able to rush forward and will more then likely not have time to shot at your objective holders since the game really doesn't starts till turn 2 with you reserving everything.

Tacoo
05-26-2010, 08:38 PM
How dare you take them genesteelers with out toxin sacs, Doubling the chance to rend against most foes makes it worth it alone, and then your able to kill all the bigger things easier also

Pil
05-26-2010, 09:21 PM
I try to stick in combat to help protect them from shooting, with toxin sacs it is hard to not kill to many. Re-rolling 1's to hit is priceless against vehicles. Honestly though 8 stealers and a broodlord walk through most everything in CC. I assaulted 2 wraithlords with just 8 stealers and killed them both without losing any. Which really sucked because I thought for sure I would be stuck in with one and only lose 2 stealers at most then finish the other off on his turn of assault. I play them a lot and poison just really isn't needed, but talons are a must have for vehicle assaulting.

Tynskel
05-26-2010, 10:30 PM
IC can join carnifexes- they are not a single model unit anymore.

ashnaile
05-27-2010, 03:36 AM
You can attach primes to carnifexes just fine, reread the rules if youre confused, dont dereail my topic with a list that has nothing to do with whats posted then keep spamming it discussing said list.

c&c about the actual list please.

Lemt
05-27-2010, 03:44 AM
Do you really want Crushing Claws on the 'fexes? I'd probably rather give the Primes some more stuff, maybe even regeneration if you feel wacky. And IMHO it's worth it to play a few less termas but buff them with glands and sacs.
Other than that, I'd say the list is fine.

ashnaile
05-27-2010, 06:37 PM
i had added crushing claws as the unit needs to absolutely destory whatever it charges, and 2-6 extra attacks will help on the way to that.

Hugz4Genestealers
05-27-2010, 07:20 PM
The extra attacks afforded by the crushing claws are nice, but even w/ re-rolling 1's afforded by the remaining set of scything talons, the actual number of hits is only going to average slightly higher than being able to reroll all misses with two sets of talons. You gotta ask yourself if there isn't perhaps a better place to spend the points. Regen for a few more of your big lovelies, perhaps? Or some lash whip/bonesword goodness for your primes, they're pretty naked as it is now, help 'em out and give em force weapons and frags.

Nom
05-28-2010, 08:22 AM
Tyranid prime 80
Tyranid prime 80

Why no biomorphs? Throw some lashwhips/swords or dual boneswords on them and maybe regeneration to soak krak hits on the fexen.

Doom of malantai /w s'pod 130
2x zoanthropes in s'pod 160
3x hive guard 150

I'd take another squad of hiveguard instead of the thropes here. You're going to take a lot of fire walking on the board, and the more T6 wounds you have to soak, the better.

5x tyranid warriors, 4x /w deathspitters 1x venom cannon, all /w 1x scytals 185
19x devourer termgants in a s'pod 230
Tervigon /w adrenal and toxin sacs, catalyst 195

Those devourer gaunts are a lot of points to throw away shooting at one group of infantry. While they're great, you have enough anti troop in other places. I'd save the points and take a min strength squad of gants. Maybe outflanking genestealers to hit rear armor?

2x Carnifexes /w crushing claws 370

Carnifexes aren't really that tough. If this is your hammer unit, striking simul with powerfists (and after everyone else) is really going to hurt you. Drop the claws, they only give you slightly more hits, and the missed re-rolls against vehicles really hurts you when you have to get 6's. Throw frag spines and some Adrenal Glands on there. That way, you can take out pesky squads in cover and at least go at the same time as MEQ on the charge. I occasionally run a squad of fexes with a prime like this, and I find it works much better.

Also, remember that the two primes getting cover means your fexes get cover! (50% of the squad)

Trygon Prime /w adrenal glands 250
Mawloc 170

I'd drop the mawloc, and take another trygon w/ AG. Whenever I field one lonely trygon it just seems to get shot to pieces as soon as it comes up. Running them in pairs works much better.

synack
05-28-2010, 09:11 AM
You'd be better off with a Tyrant + guard + prime. Give the tyrant +2 save and watch marines squirm when they shoot krak missiles at you. Also harder to kill the tyrant as he's not an IC, so can't be singled in combat. Give the guard lash and the prime dual boneswords. Easy cover too for the tyrant, run gants in front. Dual devs on the tyrant works nicely too. 12 TL S6 shots a go, ot 6 + pshyic power.

Fizyx
05-28-2010, 09:18 AM
Can you join a Prime to a Hive Tyrant? It is a unit normally consisting of a single model, where the Tyrant Guard are an exception.

In any case, I would put the Prime with the other warriors. It would increase their effectiveness substantially, both in CC and shooting. Also, Boneswords are so worth it. 10 points on a 80 point model to quite literally increase effectiveness vs. MEQ by 200%? Sign me the hell up.

Actually, scratch that, I wouldn't bring the Warriors at all (including the prime.) I would rather spend the points on some Genestealers.

Fizyx
05-28-2010, 01:07 PM
Also, a little Mathammer on the crushing claws vs. the scything talons makes me realize that they are rarely, if ever, worth it. 25 points for just a slight increase of killability is just not worth it, especially when you attack last AND don't get to re-roll all dice when you are going up against that vehicle that moved 6.01" last turn.

Pil
05-28-2010, 07:08 PM
You can attach primes to carnifexes just fine, reread the rules if youre confused, dont dereail my topic with a list that has nothing to do with whats posted then keep spamming it discussing said list.

c&c about the actual list please.

Thread: 2k pt nid deathstar

That is your topic. I gave you advice on a 2k pt list, that is not derailing anything. As for Primes joining a brood of Carnifex is questionable at best. I doubt you will get much hassle about it though in friendly games, but I would not be surprised if it was disallowed in a tournament. I know what the rule says the problem is there is no precedence for a monstrous creature unit (That I am aware of, please enlighten me if there is), and an IC joining it. The rule has always been IC can not join a monstrous creature. Personally I wouldn't care for the simple reason that it is the worse possible place for that prime to be attached.

If you want help on building a solid list maybe you could list all the models you have available and let people give you advice on how best to build around them with what you have. The list you posted is far from anything resembling a deathstar. Tervigon, Termants and Swarlord with Tyrant Guard defending your backfield is more on a deathstar level.

Also on a side note a Tyrant, including The Swarmlord, can join a brood of Tyrant Guard like an IC. But it can not detach from them, it can also be singled out in CC if you are in base contact with the Tyrant just like an IC. They do keep you in cover easier though and keep you safe from shooting for the most part. 2+ save on a Tyrant with Guard is really tough.

Nom
05-28-2010, 09:47 PM
The rule has always been IC can not join a monstrous creature.
Rule book page 48 paragraph 1: "[Independent Characters] cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see the Vehicles section) and units that always consist of a single model (like most vehicles and monstrous creatures)." (Emphasis mine) A Carnifex brood with only one Carnifex is not a unit that always consists of a single model, thus it can be joined by an independent character.


Also on a side note a Tyrant, including The Swarmlord, can join a brood of Tyrant Guard like an IC. But it can not detach from them, it can also be singled out in CC if you are in base contact with the Tyrant just like an IC. They do keep you in cover easier though and keep you safe from shooting for the most part. 2+ save on a Tyrant with Guard is really tough.

Tyranid Codex, Page 35: "... may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it were an independent character...". The only point the tyrant/SL uses the independent character rules is while joining the unit. The rest of the game, it is one cohesive unit. Thus, he cannot be singled out.

Also, currently, I run the unit that synack mentioned: HT w/OA Regen, LW&BS, 2+, with three Guards w/lash whips, and a prime with dual boneswords, regen, and rending claws.

ashnaile
05-29-2010, 09:36 AM
I hadnt thought of the reduction of rerolls to ones by dropping the second pair of scytals ... nice catch lol ... crushing claws do seem almost worthless ...

If you think ics cant join mc units that dont always consist of a single model you need to go back and reread the rules please. This isnt a "beardy move" or a "rules lawyer thing to do".

This is plainly spelled out in simple terms, its understandable if you have a previous ed mindset where before there were no MC units that came in more than a single model, which came to the effect that you could never put an ic with a mc. But the situation has changed with the introduction of broods of mcs.

With the 50 pts from dropping the crushing claws id put regen on the trygon prime and either the mawloc or a tervigon, not sure, probably the mawloc?

Pil
05-29-2010, 09:44 AM
Rule book page 48 paragraph 1: "[Independent Characters] cannot, however, join vehicle squadrons (see the Vehicles section) and units that always consist of a single model (like most vehicles and monstrous creatures)." (Emphasis mine) A Carnifex brood with only one Carnifex is not a unit that always consists of a single model, thus it can be joined by an independent character.



Tyranid Codex, Page 35: "... may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it were an independent character...". The only point the tyrant/SL uses the independent character rules is while joining the unit. The rest of the game, it is one cohesive unit. Thus, he cannot be singled out.

Also, currently, I run the unit that synack mentioned: HT w/OA Regen, LW&BS, 2+, with three Guards w/lash whips, and a prime with dual boneswords, regen, and rending claws.

I don't know and it really doesn't matter to me just saying a tournament organizer might say different is all. It needs to be faq'ed.

As for the Tyrant with guard I will tell you every tournament I have played in, including ard'boyz, the TO has ruled it can be picked out since the rule clearly stats it joins like an IC, and an IC can be picked out when base to base in close combat.

Anyways lets not sweat this to much no good player is going to be attaching primes to carnifex, or running their Tyrant out in a position to get charged by something that can gank it.Lets worry more about convincing the OP to put his primes in with the warriors or maybe a unit of venomthropes. Actually 2 broods of 2 venomthropes with the 2 primes joined to one each would make this list much stronger. See if you can play test your list with that suggestion and tell us if it isn't better.

ashnaile
05-29-2010, 10:46 AM
... It does not need to be faq'd ... its spelled out in plain english, if you cant grasp it or your to cant, send them to remedial english classes.

For one this isnt my only list, so dont try to convince me to make a "good" list. I have that, the point of this is to make THIS list better, a variant that im able to run with the models i have from my main force.

Also, venomthropes are garbage and youre not as you put it a "good" player if you use them imho. Wasting the most valuable FOC slot in your codex is not what good players do. And if you build a list around the fact that you wasted an elites slot to mitigate the fact you dont have as much hguard/zoeys then your list most likely is terrible.


Dont meant to sound so confrontational but this part really got my goat ....
"Anyways lets not sweat this to much no good player is going to be attaching primes to carnifex" ....

Player who gives positive rating of venomthropes probably shouldnt be speaking with knowledge of what "good players" would do.

Fizyx
05-29-2010, 02:33 PM
As for the Tyrant with guard I will tell you every tournament I have played in, including ard'boyz, the TO has ruled it can be picked out since the rule clearly stats it joins like an IC, and an IC can be picked out when base to base in close combat.

No, the codex clearly states it joins "as if it were an independent character." The rule is written very poorly, but what is clear is that if it has to join "as if it were," then it most certainly is not an independent character, even after joining the brood of Guard. Your Tournament organizer was probably just trying to quell the anger of the majority of players who were not playing Tyranids. It will hopefully be addressed in the next FAQ.

In any case, the fact is Carnifex + Tryanid Prime is kind of a waste. I see absolutely no reason to do it. Today I ran a brood of 6 warriors w/ boneswords with an attached prime (also with bone swords) and they kicked more *** than you could ever imagine. Of course I was facing almost no S8 in CC, so I knew they would, but still. Jesus.

Attaching a Prime to a Hive Tyrant, however, is a fabulous idea. Next time I run without warriors I will have to give it a try. At first I thought it was illegal, until I realized the Prime was attaching to the Guard, not the Tyrant.

ashnaile
05-29-2010, 04:05 PM
warriors in close combat can be a risky thing, each power fist that smacks you is 3 wounds for purposes of combat resolution .... a lucky sarge and you just lost combat by 5-10 even if you kicked the squads teeth in and only left one or two standing.

That being said i use warriors in all my tyranid lists, though with lashwhip and sword or just dual swords theyre too expensive, other units can be a dedicated cc unit for medium infantry, and for better points efficiency. Also Warriors will bounce off things that the fex unit will leave as a red stain on the ground.

As for prime with the tyrant guard i hadnt thought of that, although a tyrant unit with guard hardly needs any more killability lol ....

Ghoulio
05-29-2010, 09:09 PM
Ashnaile here are a couple of things I would consider for your list:

1) Tyranid Primes NEED a weapon. Even just giving them Dual Boneswords and Scything Talons increases their killy-ness dramatically.

2) The one thing in the list that doesnt really make a whole lot of sense to me is the Podding unit of Dev Gants. 19 guys MIGHT do a bit of damage they drop in, but if they arent near any of your regular synapse they will get freaking hosed. All someone will have to do is 4 wounds and they chances of them breaking are really good. Another thing to consider is you miss out on all the great Synergy of keeping them near the Tervigon. I personally would just double the amount of these guys by giving them flesh borers and remove the pod.

3) As far as your fexes go I would give them twin Linked MC Devs. It's only 10 points more then what you have and it gives them two roles, one which they are retardedly effective in. 24, twin linked str 6 shots per turn is amazing. They are also almost as killy in hand to hand. And to answer "Pil" the reason you attach the Prime to a unit of two Carnifexs is he will be great for wound allocation and making sure they are within Synapse range and do what you want them to. Two Carnies with MC Devs and a Prime is an awesome mini deathstar unit. If you give the prime a deathspitter and dual boneswords with adrenal glands you now have a unit that gets 27 Str 5-6 shots a turn and a model that strikes with 5 Init 6, str 6, insta killing power weapon hits then followed by 10 str 9 MC hits, and since the Carnies are in majority your prime gets wounded as if he is T6 instead of T4 if he is with teh warriors.

I also think that saying if you take a Venomthrope in your army makes you a bad player is a pretty silly thing to say. So far in 5th ed I have won 2 major tournies and always placed in the top half for the ones I havent won and I take a unit of two venomthropes and they ALWAYS are awesome. You should try them out, you might be surprised :) (key point...target saturation is your friend )

ashnaile
05-30-2010, 10:41 AM
I'm sorry but your local meta playing sub par lists doesnt make venomthropes good.

As for point 1, yes i could give the primes weapons, but their only purpose is wound allocation and giving cover saves to their unit of death.

2. Well yes synapse could be a problem with the dev gaunts, unless the trygons around, think ill play around on ab with their points, that or keep them as is and just walk them on with mycetic coming down to try to box in vehicles for mawloc instagibbing.


Like i said earlier, you caan build a list around venomthropes, but its still going to be a bad list because it has less hive guard.

Sure, if your local meta is poor and cant afford to mechup, go with that venomthrope list, but its still subpar with a bad foc selection.

Cover saves arent hard to get in 5th edition, wasting an elite slot to get something thats retardedly easy tog et already is kinda iffy imho ....

DarkLink
05-30-2010, 11:29 AM
I'm sorry but your local meta playing sub par lists doesnt make venomthropes good.


So because you, personally, don't like it, it can't possibly ever produce results for anyone, and if it does then obviously their opponent was completely incompetent?

Tynskel
05-30-2010, 11:47 AM
Yes, Venomthropes are not sub-par.

As with most of the Tyranid list, venomthropes are a distraction unit. They grant many bonuses to the Bugs, not just cover saves. And they grant auto cover saves to Monsterous Creatures, which have a hard time getting cover saves.

ashnaile
05-30-2010, 12:17 PM
Im not saying the unit itself, In a vacuum is bad.

But if you take a venomthrope in an actual game its hurt your list, as there are better choices for elites handsdown.

Fizyx
05-30-2010, 01:30 PM
Im not saying the unit itself, In a vacuum is bad.

But if you take a venomthrope in an actual game its hurt your list, as there are better choices for elites handsdown.

That's pretty damned subjective statement.

Are you saying the 1750 list I played yesterday with only 2 Hive Guard should have lost, even though I tabled my opponent on turn 4? Oh ****, I left an elite FOC slot empty, therefore I suck?

Hive Guard are good, but they aren't everything. If I was running a 2500 list with multiple Monstrous Creatures I might actually give a slot to two Venomthropes. Lord knows the cover save is nice and they are a nice distraction for a round or two of shooting.

Hive Guard are great at popping light armor and transports and non-venerable dreadnoughts, but really that is about it (well, killing Raveners and Warriors, but that is another topic.) With the abundance of ranged high S low AP weaponry, a 5+ cover save really isn't looking too bad. Against most armies with that kind of firepower, you are looking at Armor 13-14, which is really rough for the Hive Guard. Take 3 Zoe's, 3 Hive Guard, 2 Venomthropes and supplement your anti-armor with a few carnifexes and you'll do fine.

Also, above all else: you asked to to C&C your list. That is what we are doing. Don't ask us for an opinion and then shove it back in our face. That's not nice, yo.

Tynskel
05-30-2010, 01:42 PM
Didn't you know that you lost?
I mean, YOU must have been tabled by turn 4-- you only 2 Hive Guard and left open a FOC!

:)

ashnaile
05-30-2010, 02:53 PM
As said vsing bad lists or bad players sure, go try to win ard boyz with your venomthrope list and be massacred every game ...

Hive guard are good at more than light transport killing ... IDing nobz, meq chars, piercing fnp, oh ... and never getting shot if your store/venue can actually afford decent terrain.

As for tabling your opponent on turn 4 oh wow good job? Play a terrible army/player and you table them? For all we know you vsed 6x 20 gretchin with flashgitz ork army led by a weirdboy....

go fight a 20 chimera chassis ig army and table them on turn 4 with your venomthropes lol ...

Tynskel
05-30-2010, 03:18 PM
sooo....


Why are you asking for advice from us, considering you already know what you are doing?

Ghoulio
05-30-2010, 03:49 PM
Wow, not very often you see people ask for advice, then when someone gives them advice they respond by insulting them. Sorry to burst your bubble but the meta game where I live isnt "sub par". I get the same level of Chimera spam mech guard lists and Vulkan lists as everywhere else. Just because I play a different style then you doesnt mean I have no idea what I am talking about. Telling someone if they put a 55pt model in their army they will AUTOMATICALLY lose is ignorant and very misinformed.

I have to agree with Tynskel. Why are you asking people for advice in the first place since you already know everything about this book that has been out for 5 months?

ashnaile
05-30-2010, 05:03 PM
If you want to get confrontational you should just not post.

I asked for advice on tweaking a specific list, not for 10 people to come in with misconceptions on rules and random bad lists.

You are at an automatic disadvantage with vthropes, never said automatic loss, your opponent coulod be a downy afterall ...

if your local players are bad and cant capitalize on subpar list building then they arent very good.

Pil
05-30-2010, 07:00 PM
If you want to get confrontational you should just not post.

I asked for advice on tweaking a specific list, not for 10 people to come in with misconceptions on rules and random bad lists.

You are at an automatic disadvantage with vthropes, never said automatic loss, your opponent coulod be a downy afterall ...

if your local players are bad and cant capitalize on subpar list building then they arent very good.


A lot of people have given you good advice here as well as pointed out some things that may come up as problems, and things that are just bad. Honestly that list you posted is bad beyond belief and will get tabled quick by any "decent" player.

How can anyone that attaches primes to fex and drop pods in a 230 pt termagant squad call anyone else bad is beyond my comprehension. You saying Venomthropes are terrible and a waste of a slot is laughable. But I won't waste my breath on you anymore since you seem more intent on spitting in peoples face rather then take good advice.

And just out of curiosity could you tells us what you placed in the Ard'Boyz prelims and post your list? I mean I would love to see the Ard'Boyz prelim winning Tyranid list. It might help me with my Semi Finals Tyranid list I am building for this coming month.

Tynskel
05-30-2010, 07:23 PM
A lot of people have given you good advice here as well as pointed out some things that may come up as problems, and things that are just bad. Honestly that list you posted is bad beyond belief and will get tabled quick by any "decent" player.

How can anyone that attaches primes to fex and drop pods in a 230 pt termagant squad call anyone else bad is beyond my comprehension. You saying Venomthropes are terrible and a waste of a slot is laughable. But I won't waste my breath on you anymore since you seem more intent on spitting in peoples face rather then take good advice.

And just out of curiosity could you tells us what you placed in the Ard'Boyz prelims and post your list? I mean I would love to see the Ard'Boyz prelim winning Tyranid list. It might help me with my Semi Finals Tyranid list I am building for this coming month.

Reality Check: Someone else's list will not make you a better player.

Everyone has a playing style and certain conventions on how to use their armies. Unless someone else's list is set up in a similar style, it will generally not help you.

What will help you is to understand how your army works, what the weaknesses and strengths are, and understanding your opponent's weaknesses and strengths. This requires familiarity with your army and many opponents-- this comes from playing lots n' lots of games.

The best way to train for 'Ard Boyz is to play against different armies with a wide range of tactics... over and over and over. Then decide if something needs to change. Rinse, repeat.

Most people are not willing to put that kind of effort in (they'll say they don't have the time- but you can always make the time, that's a choice). Nick Rose, last year, made the effort to invest into his Guard army. His army wasn't 'optimized' as well as it could have been, however, he knew his list inside, out, and around- and knew what everyone of his opponents could do. That's why he won.

Pil
05-31-2010, 06:05 PM
Reality Check: Someone else's list will not make you a better player.

Everyone has a playing style and certain conventions on how to use their armies. Unless someone else's list is set up in a similar style, it will generally not help you.

What will help you is to understand how your army works, what the weaknesses and strengths are, and understanding your opponent's weaknesses and strengths. This requires familiarity with your army and many opponents-- this comes from playing lots n' lots of games.

The best way to train for 'Ard Boyz is to play against different armies with a wide range of tactics... over and over and over. Then decide if something needs to change. Rinse, repeat.

Most people are not willing to put that kind of effort in (they'll say they don't have the time- but you can always make the time, that's a choice). Nick Rose, last year, made the effort to invest into his Guard army. His army wasn't 'optimized' as well as it could have been, however, he knew his list inside, out, and around- and knew what everyone of his opponents could do. That's why he won.


lol yea sarcasm on that last part about his list. I doubt I can obtain any useful information from the OP. Thanks for the reality check though.