Rulebook-Codex discrepancies

[slxiii]

I'll try to keep this short and to the point.
If i were playing Black Templars, I would have to take target priority tests because the codex overrides the rulebook, correct?

And if i were playing Tau, my Kroot units could see through intervening forest for the purpose of line of sight, correct?

In both cases, a codex rule references something no longer in the main rulebook, however, the way i've always seen people play it is that the Templars MUST take a target priority test, while the Kroot's rule does not apply.

Am I wrong, or are these two scenarios wrong?

[GrandmasterRay]

If i were playing Black Templars, I would have to take target priority tests because the codex overrides the rulebook, correct?

Not unless the rules for target priority are in C:BT. They do not exist unless you are playing with the 4th ed MRB. So no more target priority tests. This is the same reason that your Command and Control Node for Tau no longer does anything and your suits having Acute Senses is pointless. If someone makes you take a target priority test, you should call them a noob and promptly punch them in the face.


And if i were playing Tau, my Kroot units could see through intervening forest for the purpose of line of sight, correct?

This one's a little more tricky. this one is yes AND no. Kroot can see through the trees for true line of sight purposes as long as they're not more than 12" thick, but the models behind it still get a cover save. So in a manner of speaking, this ability is only useful if the trees are blocking your LOS to the ENTIRE unit that you are targeting. (corrected. see dezartfox's post. 2 down)

Also refer to the 40k rulebook FAQ available on games-workshop.com.

[Nabterayl]

The codex only takes precedence over the rulebook in case of conflict. Changes in the rulebook can still radically change the way the codex works from edition to edition. The codex cannot write things into the rulebook to preserve the way it functioned at the time of writing.

I'm not super familiar with Black Templar, but I assume you're referring to Kill Them All? If so, I don't see anything in that rule that requires Black Templar to take Target Priority tests. KTA says "when testing to see if it can target any enemy unit other than the closest." It does not say under what circumstances BTs must do so - even at the time of writing, only the main rulebook did that. The current main rulebook does not ever tell you to test Leadership to see if you can target any enemy unit other than the closest. Hence, the codex rule is still in force; it just never comes up.

Fieldcraft (kroot "can see and shoot through 12" of woods or jungle terrain rather than the 6" that would normally be the case") I feel is a trickier case. EDIT: I think I agree with GrandmasterRay on this one. This would fall under the category of a rule being radically different now than it was at the time of writing, since at the time of writing you could not target a unit inside area terrain that had more than 6" of area terrain between it and the firer.

[Dezartfox]

The Tau FAQ/Errata states that the kroot rule for looking through woods is gone.

[Nabterayl]

Oh yeah. So it does (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180141_Tau_Empire_FAQ_2006-08_5th_Edition.pdf). Can't believe I forgot that.

[Ferro]

I've got one for you, on a related theme. In the main Apocalypse book, it says that Gargantuan Creatures are not affected by psychic powers, except those with a strength value (ie shooting attacks directed at them). A few pages later, the Heirophant description says that it's a Gargantuan Creature, AND it's a Psyker with the Warp Field power (a passive ability that does not have a strength value, and which grants the creature an invulnerable save).

A friend at my store argues that the Heirophant does not get Warp Field, by virtue of the explicit restriction against it for all Gargantuan Creatures. I.e., Garg. Creatures cannot be Psykers, therefore the Heirophant cannot be a Psyker.

I argue that the unit description for Heirophant supercedes the general rules for Gargantuan Creatures, in the same vein as 'Codex trumps Rulebook'. I.e., in general Gargantuan Creatures cannot be Psykers, but the Heirophant has it's own special rules and is an exception.

Friend's counter-argument: But the unit descriptions in Apocalypse are not technically in a Codex, so you can't call on the 'Codex trumps Rulebook' maxim.

My riposte: Horsesh*&. I know, it's not as logically thorough as I prefer to be, but it's succinct.

So it comes to this: do the unit descriptions in supliments count as Codex? No. I agree they are outside of Codex. BUT, what is the meaning of 'Codex trumps Rulebook' if not to say that there is a general set of game rules which are either used or modified/discarded by various units.

I say the Heirophant gets his Warp Field. How do you call it?

[Nabterayl]

I would say that rules lawyers who aren't actually lawyers make a hash of it when they try :p Lawyering is an actual skill, you know. I don't think a real lawyer would take your friend's position unless he was getting paid, and maybe not even then. I sure wouldn't.

Seriously, though, if your interpretation of a piece of text makes it meaningless at the time of writing, something is wrong with your interpretation. It's one thing to argue that the rulebook changed, and thus a piece of a codex or supplement has been invalidated. It's another to argue that a piece of a codex or supplement was always invalid.

For whatever it's worth, I say hierophants get their Warp Field.

[GrandmasterRay]

I call it "your friend doesn't want to get trounced so he tried to take your saves away especially if this was being argued during a game". seriously though, I agree with line 3 of your post Ferro. Overall, specific rules supersede general rules.

Here's one for ya. Would a Daemonhunter force weapon kill the heirophant? Not instant death and could be construed as having a strength of the wielder. Or is that D3 wounds like D weapons?

[Nabterayl]

I say no, a *H force weapon could not kill a hierophant. The psychic power granted by the codex does not have a Strength value. If that were true, you would need to take a psychic test before you rolled to wound. Instead, the power has the property that it can only be targeted at models that have suffered an unsaved wound from the force weapon, which is a different matter.

So, assuming you wounded the hierophant with your *H force weapon, the hierophant would indeed be a valid target for the force weapon psychic power. However, as the power does not have a Strength value, it would not do anything to the hierophant even if you passed your psychic test.

[Lord Sandwich]

How about all of these (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=150103)?

[Gotthammer]

Here's one for ya. Would a Daemonhunter force weapon kill the heirophant? Not instant death and could be construed as having a strength of the wielder. Or is that D3 wounds like D weapons?

StrD weapons inflict one wound against anything that is immune to instant death. This is explicitly stated in the StrD rules section, and does go against the general rules for instant death on Garg. Creatures.

Unless you meant D-Cannons, which do do D3 wounds.

[Starion]

I've got one for you, on a related theme. In the main Apocalypse book, it says that Gargantuan Creatures are not affected by psychic powers, except those with a strength value (ie shooting attacks directed at them). A few pages later, the Heirophant description says that it's a Gargantuan Creature, AND it's a Psyker with the Warp Field power (a passive ability that does not have a strength value, and which grants the creature an invulnerable save).

...

I say the Heirophant gets his Warp Field. How do you call it?

Try this interpretation - the Heiro is not affected by the Warp Field. Only the source of. To make that slightly clearer - look at how other powers work. An average Psy shooting attack would have an affect on the Heiro - after successful hits/wounds rolls. A Lash attack would have no affect, as although it also targets the Heiro, it's strengthless. Warp Field though, doesn't affect a Heiro, but is merely centred on it. A Warp Field does affect any shots fired at the Heiro though - they are essentially the targets of the power.

Any thoughts on that?

[Nabterayl]

I dunno, maybe. If you don't want to go with the "no meaningless surplusage" principle, I guess something like that could work. On the other hand, "giving" a creature a 6+ invulnerable save certainly sounds like "affecting" it to me.

This really feels to me more like Blood Angel transports not having access points - something that simply cannot be true because it would mean that even when originally published the book contained unit entries with language that could not ever be used, even though the rules interpretation is plain as day.