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View Full Version : A letter to BoLS...



crayonperson23
06-14-2010, 01:10 AM
I just finished going over the BolsCon info for the 40k tourney info, and I just saw we have to submit our lists a MONTH in advance!?!?! What? Why?

I've been playing MtG for years where literally hundreds of players show up and no one submits their list a month in advance! 'Ard Boyz didn't require us to do so either, and I just browsed the Adepticon page as well and they don't require us to do any such nonsense.

The main reason I post is because there have been times where I've changed my mind a week or two before the tourney and it helps to know that I can change my list at the last minute. I mean what's the difference if I submit it now or later? Are you really going to check everybody's list the day of the tourney and compare it to the one we submitted a month in advance? Why don't you just check it there, that very same day? It's the same thing isn't it? You still have to check for "Composition Errors" that same day as well!

Well, it got to the point where I started thinking "Composition Errors" is just another way of saying someone wants to see what they're up against. To see what armies they'll see a lot of so they can metagame a month in advance. Yep, I said it . Because it doesn't make any sense to me as to why I should turn in my list a month in advance.

In all honesty, I just want to play. Pretty simple, right? But I want to be on an even playing field as everyone and that includes anyone that has access to the list that I and many others will be submitting by the end of this month.

To conclude my rant, I will submit my list a month in advance in order to get those 10 points as every true gamer knows that every little point helps. I just really hope that someone reconsiders and provides us another method in which we can still earn those 10 points.

A loyal yet disgruntled lurker,
crayonperson23

Melissia
06-14-2010, 07:05 AM
So why don't you email it instead of posting it here where everyone and their mother can pick it apart, make fun of it, ignore it, or debate the hell out of it?

Old_Paladin
06-14-2010, 07:22 AM
It's not that uncommon for some tournies to expect a list in advance.
I'm not a host of BOLScon, so this is just my two cents.

There's a few reasons for this:
1) It cuts back on cheating (not that I'm saying you would do this). If you got to make your list the day of, it could be easy to talk to other gamers and see that you'd face army style x or y for most games and taylor your list for that.
1b) It makes sure you can never change your list between games. If you hand it in the day of, it would be really easy to say, "oh, I guess that was the list I was testing three days ago; but I didn't like it. Guess I forgot to take those out of the pile. Here's my real list I was playing with." -See Blood of Kittens article about Adapticon for a similar situation in one of the Finals.

2) It saves time for the hosts. If everyone (we're talking hundreds of people) shows up and hands their list in, it would take a lot of host a large amount of time to go through them all; going through every codex, to make sure all the lists are the right points, with the right FOC, using the right special rules for each army. It gives them time to check the lists, and get back to you if your list wouldn't be allowed.


Basically, it makes things a ton easier for the limited number of people running the event; and not forcing them to do even more work in a very short amount of time.

And really, that one comment. You think Jwolf and Bigred are looking over everyone elses list to see what they're up against? I don't think anyone is planning to 'metagame' off the pre-submitted lists.

DarkLink
06-14-2010, 11:02 AM
I wouldn't have a problem with sending in a list in advance. In fact, it would be kinda convenient to be able to send it in, put a copy in your stuff for your opponents, then not have to worry about it.

Plus then you avoid situations like me accidentally leaving my printed copies of my list as home at the 'ard Boyz semi-finals. Luckily, I had the list memorized, so I was able to write out a copy before the events started. Though I'd forgot a pen, too, so I had to borrow one:rolleyes:.

Though a month in advance seems a little early to me.

Jwolf
06-14-2010, 12:36 PM
Having lists in ahead of time makes it a lot easier to arrange the tournament and check everyone's lists. We will have hundreds of lists that require the following steps:

1) Check for legality.
2) Enter into standard format.
3) Make copies for all opponents, the player, and to have at judges table.

Assuming a list is perfect and in the correct format already, this only takes about 10-20 minutes. Multiply that by 600-800. It's a big task, if all the lists are perfect and formatted to our standard. Last year we had roughly two lists with errors submitted per ten lists, and the average error list took 2 email exchanges to correct. Roughly an extra hour per list. Multiply that times 60-80. So a reasonable expectation of the man hours required to get the lists in shape before considering the thousands of copies is a minimum of 160 man hours, or 4 full-time weeks. At a minimum.

We found that having standard formatting on lists was worth doing last year, and does cut out any shenanigans with the armies.

If we had people show up and hand in their lists, we would require 4-6 extra full time list checkers working all day to just verify the lists. And considering that 20% of players last year had errors, having this discovered after 3 games have been completed with an illegal list would be awful - we could either cause the player to forfeit all games played to that point (seems harsh) or let the results stand (seems unfair) or somewhere in between (seems random). I'm a lot happier with lists submission being an issue for some percentage of players than having the problem of bad lists; others feel differently and that is fine, too.

Jwolf
06-14-2010, 12:39 PM
Well, it got to the point where I started thinking "Composition Errors" is just another way of saying someone wants to see what they're up against. To see what armies they'll see a lot of so they can metagame a month in advance. Yep, I said it . Because it doesn't make any sense to me as to why I should turn in my list a month in advance.



No one who will see your list is playing. Only myself and the head judges have access to the lists ahead of time, and that is strictly controlled by me. Save paranoid ramblings for places that like drama, as I have little interest in it.

Aldramelech
06-14-2010, 01:05 PM
This seems entirely sensible to me. Id be more then happy that a tournament I was taking part in had its act together to this degree.

Lerra
06-14-2010, 03:04 PM
For a little local tournament, requiring you to submit a list a month in advance would be crazy, but this is a huge convention and the logistics are more complicated. Perhaps if there were more volunteers, the 4-week period could be shortened to 2-weeks, though. That's a crazy amount of work for a small team, even if you do have a month to complete it.

Personally, I'd just forfeit the 10 points and bring a list on the day of the tournament if the early list submission is a problem. It's only 10 points, and the vast majority of the people at the con are not in the right league to compete for prizes anyway. For most people, it won't matter. I'd pay 10 points for the ability to change my list the night before the tournament.

Jwolf
06-14-2010, 07:58 PM
Having lots of volunteers doesn't really help with the list issues. You have to have every Codex / Army Book and be familiar with the armies to do the job. We could share them out to "army specialists", but that adds another step, and more time. And since we not only review the lists but format them to be uniform, more people touching the lists adds another step of reviewing for uniformity.

It's not a simple thing, and the system we have works pretty well. And, as Lerra says, it's only 10 points. (and you'll have to bring all the list copies for your army instead of getting copies provided).

Lykum
07-27-2010, 10:09 PM
We found that having standard formatting on lists was worth doing last year, and does cut out any shenanigans with the armies.


I swear to god I'm going to pistol whip the next guy who says shenanigans.

Duke
07-28-2010, 12:19 AM
I swear to god I'm going to pistol whip the next guy who says shenanigans.

That is shenanigans (sorry, couldn't help myself from that kind of shenanigans) ::dodges the pistol whip shenanigans::


Duke

RealGenius
07-28-2010, 03:10 PM
I swear to god I'm going to pistol whip the next guy who says shenanigans.

I call shenanigans on the thread necromancy. :p

Lykum
07-28-2010, 05:09 PM
I call shenanigans on the thread necromancy. :p

Well, that settles it. Everybody grab a broom, it's Shenanigans.

codiddy
07-28-2010, 05:32 PM
I swear to god I'm going to pistol whip the next guy who says shenanigans.
Hey Farva what's the name of that restaurant you like with all the goofy **** on the walls and the mozzarella sticks?

RealGenius
07-29-2010, 08:30 AM
What are you, the shoe police?

crazyredpraetorian
08-02-2010, 08:56 AM
In 6th grade, an 80 year old Irish nun grabbed me by my hair and yanked my head back and forth telling me she didn't want to see anymore of my shenanigans......Later that day she told my grandmother that I was an angel.:confused: