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MutantLoveFist
07-04-2010, 03:55 AM
Hi all, I thought I'd post a small article I sent to Bols, as I doubt it will be posted. In short it's about an analysis of the Mythology of 40k, its inspiration/sources and any suppossed/potential/speculative meaning for us...

‘Fluff’ is King.

I say this because it’s the truth. Everything about the Hobby is an extension of it and the hobby itself exists because of it. Indeed, I regard ‘fluff’ as the most important aspect of the Hobby for this very reason, and am personally somewhat loathed to describe the complex mythology of 40k/warhammer as mere ‘fluff’.

This mythology dictates everything. It dictates the design/concept of all the miniatures (berzerker examples and such notwithstanding) and thus how they are equipped and act upon the battlefield, even to the paint schemes we all love to use. In fact it is remarkable the extent of which GW has borrowed/stolen/developed many existing mythologies/cultural deritas, and the subsequent philosophical concepts, into its own grand mythology – which has, over time, become a true work of fictional genius.

We all may know of the many veiled references within GW’s created myth, and within 40k lore in particular. For example: Abaddon being the Angel of the Bottomless Pit (eye of terror), Ahriman being the main evil in Zoroastrianism (Nietzsche’s prophetic choice for Thus Spoke Zarathustra), Nergal/Nurgle, the Poem ‘The Dark Angel’ written by Lionel Johnson, Astarte being the Ancient Phoenician God of fertility etc.
The question this brings, to my mind anyway, is, to what is the extent that we can speculate upon this mythology? How far do these names/concepts translate into something tangible that we can relate back to the human ‘condition’? Do we really care?

My point is there is far more to the 40k hobby and its lore than meets the casual eye and I believe it is from these strong mythological concepts that much of our child-like fascination/dedication springs. Why else do we love Space Marines? If they weren’t the 7 foot tall +, genetically/godly engineered, warrior gods armed with thermo-nuclear explosive penetrating guns and were all called names like ‘Gerald’, then none of us would even care.

I will give one such example of this speculative mythological extension, the Emperor. The ‘God’ of humanity has many references contained within his myth, from the Eagle that’s his symbol – any base search will lead to the discovery that it’s an ancient symbol used by the Egyptians, ****s etc…but there is also a case for a link to more esoteric mythology/philosophy. I’ll simply provide a lengthy quote from Manly P. Hall’s ‘The Secret Teaching of All Ages’ and you can all make up your own minds, anything in [-] is an interjection upon my part:

SOLOMON, THE PERSONIFICATION OF UNIVERSAL WISDOM

The name Solomon may be divided into three syllables, SOL-OM [as in the famous chant – all together now ‘OMMMM’] – ON, symbolising light, glory, and truth collectively and respectively. The Temple of Solomon is, therefore, first of all “the House of Everlasting Light,” its earthly symbol being the temple of stone on the brow of Mount Moriah. According to the ancient Mystery teachings, there are three Temples of Solomon – as there are three Grand Masters, three Witnesses, and three Tabernacles of the Transfiguration. The first temple is the Grand House of the Universe, in the midst of which sits the sun (SOL) upon his golden throne. The twelve signs of the zodiac as Fellow-Craftsmen gather around their shining lord. Three lights – the stellar, the solar, and the lunar – illuminate this Cosmic Temple. Accompanied by his retinue of planets, moons, and asteroids, this Divine King (SOLomon), whose glory no earthly monarch shall ever equal, passes in stately pomp down the avenues of space. Whereas Chiram represents the active physical light of the sun, SOLomon signifies its invisible but all-powerful, spiritual and intellectual effulgency [brilliant radiance]…

Of course there is far more to this quote and its actual meaning/value within the Freemasonic mysteries themselves but I hope you can see, as I, the similarities in the God-Emperor. So next time you play a game or discuss the ‘fluff’ why not think if there is any deeper meaning? Why not search for a little truth yourself? You may be surprised at what you find, and, who knows, you may even learn a thing or two…

ARTICLE END...

As an extra I'd ask if you could share any similar associations/revelations on this thread. I think it'll be good to see how many we can collectively spot. Thanks for looking...

Melissia
07-04-2010, 10:25 AM
To be Devil's Advocate for a moment: Fluff changes to justify changes in miniatures and rules...

MutantLoveFist
07-04-2010, 11:07 AM
You're right in a sense, but I feel wrong in others. Fluff doesn't change only to justify new models/rules (i.e. money - if I'm correct in interpreting your tone - if not then please forgive my cynicism).

For example the history of the Space Marines has only been added to - not changed completely - rules/sets for chapters have been released but I think only in support of the fluff, indeed because of the fluff, and the demand for it. Not the other way round. Indeed much of the fluff for more established units hasn't been changed, only the design/concept/execution of the miniatures and the evolution of the rules have.

As hobbyists I think we want new armies/races/units and, yes, obviously the fluff is developed in order to bring these about - but not without good reason (it only makes sense for the Space Marines to have a dreadnought retrofitted for sieges - the Ironclad). The developments in new technologies, for both designing and making miniatures, has improved. If GW didn't improve upon their miniatures with each release I think many of us would look elsewhere (I certainly would have but each successive generation seems to get better - though I am truly disappointed at the recent price hike, especially on older ranges - the Tactical Squad being a good example). However we don't know how much, in cost/time, GW has invested in researching and developing these new technologies/programs - or what plans they have in the near future...

Anyway I still think that the fluff is the prime motivator for many of us to join the hobby in the first place, if we recognise the fact or not (as I think the fluff dictates everything). As you quite rightly say, fluff changes & new models/rules come out - but I don't think that's their prime motivation for doing so. I think (perhaps wrongly) that the fluff is as important as the models/rules and the hobby would be nothing without it. Again sorry for the long post/tangent...:o

Melissia
07-04-2010, 11:29 AM
The history of Space Marines changed drastically at one point.

From Rogue Trader to Second Edition.

For example, at one point Space Marines were policed by the Sisters of Battle.

Freefall945
07-04-2010, 01:20 PM
It may be more accurate to say, rather than "Fluff is King", "Fluff is President".

Fluff, while indeed interesting thoroughly and, I would speculate, both radical and gnarly, it can, and often is, shifted dramatically by the consensus of its constituent parts. If the rules change so that one thing happens, the fluff will shift to accommodate it. Likewise for modeling, market audience, even fan-demand.

MutantLoveFist
07-04-2010, 02:54 PM
The history of Space Marines changed drastically at one point.

From Rogue Trader to Second Edition.

For example, at one point Space Marines were policed by the Sisters of Battle.

I'm sorry to correct you but they still are. Space Marine chapters are required to give gene samples to the Imperial/Inquisitorial powers either regularly or on demand to test for purity of geneseed. The Ordo Hereticus keeps an eye on all Imperial Institutions, including the Astartes. If any Space Marine chapter generates any deviance or is else preaching something the Ordo deems heretical, or its Librarians use major powers unseen within other Space Marine chapters, they will investigate and purge if necessary.

I feel bad. I kind of wanted this to be more about the influences/origins of the fluff. On new editions/rules and models dictating fluff I still slightly disagree (about 60:40) - but perhaps I'm being naive. They are continually developing the 40k lore and myth as it’s a whole continuation of story. For example the mass campaigns on Ichar IV and the 13th Black Crusade helped to develop new story lines and codex material, maybe not 100% accurately in accordance with the campaign results, but they still served as a guide.

As for Fluff being President that probably is a better analogy. I still feel the fundamentals of the fluff rarely changes, it might expand and give a new point of view on an established thing (as with the Necron Star gods and their relation to the creation/desolation of the Universe). As another example the Chaos Daemons fluff has changed little - yes they've added Bloodletters mounted on Juggernaughts and have fleshed it out - but the daemons themselves remain fundamentally the same - only the rules/miniature design has changed in line with new editions/technology.

In all I think the fluff is a more organic process of creation - it continues to evolve but this is due to more space/time being allowed within the new codices. I'm looking forward to the Dark Eldar (when/if they appear) and to see what their codex will bring to the fluff in general...and yes, along with great minis (they could hardly do worse) and the new 'unbeatable' stigma they will, most likely, receive.

OMG I've done a hench post again! :eek:

dvs1
07-04-2010, 10:21 PM
wow, nice article. Makes you stop and think. Once upon a time I also believed that fluff was something designers used to make allowances towards models, rules, etc... but when you think about it, it is exactly just that which we desire. I believe in the concept of the fluff evolves over time, and that keeps things both interesting and somewhat cohesive. Without changes to it, we all might as well be playing with the rogue trader rulebook. In my experience, when a person complains about changes in fluff about their army, its usually because it didn't agree well with their version of how it should be. Not to mention its probably pretty hard keeping what, hundreds? of writers past and present to agree to a single train of thought as there are bound to be minor discrepancies. Major ones would be rarer, and in most cases the new version of events are not as far fetched as one would think. Not to mention we get all those tasty new minis to go with the 'overpowered' new rules.

Melissia
07-04-2010, 10:45 PM
I'm sorry to correct you but they still are. Space Marine chapters are required to give gene samples to the Imperial/Inquisitorial powers either regularly or on demand to test for purity of geneseed. The Ordo Hereticus keeps an eye on all Imperial Institutions, including the Astartes

And this has nothing to do with the Sisters of Battle. Unless you're trying to say the Ecclesiarchy hunts down and destroys rogue chapters. Which it doesn't. Yes, the Sisters of Battle might be called to attack a rogue chapter, but tell me-- have you ever actually read any fluff since Rogue Trader that supports that having ever happened?

eldargal
07-04-2010, 10:59 PM
Well, an Inquisitor took a bunch of Sisters to investigate a rogue chapter, I forget which one, and they got sacrificed and et by said rogue chapter. God forbid SoB should ever win. I think its one of those Eclessiarcht/Ordo Hereticus things. So it kind of goes with the P that the fluff evolves but doesn't suffer radical change.


And this has nothing to do with the Sisters of Battle. Unless you're trying to say the Ecclesiarchy hunts down and destroys rogue chapters. Which it doesn't. Yes, the Sisters of Battle might be called to attack a rogue chapter, but tell me-- have you ever actually read any fluff since Rogue Trader that supports that having ever happened?

Melissia
07-04-2010, 11:27 PM
So ONE outdated reference :P

Any other Inquisitorial reference to destroying Marines tends to be with Exterminatus or with Grey Knights.

Lucidum
07-04-2010, 11:57 PM
I'm with the Melissa on this one, there's no fluff currently supporting the idea that the Space Marines are policed by the Adeptus Sororitas. In fact, the Space Marine chapters are akin to Imperium-Dedicated Mercenaries, answering the call of imperial powers at their own discretion. Literally the only power that can directly and by its own authrority call upon Space Marine chapters for support are the Inquisitorial Ordos, and generally only those of the puritan (rather than radical) philosophy.

MutantLoveFist
07-05-2010, 03:55 AM
And this has nothing to do with the Sisters of Battle. Unless you're trying to say the Ecclesiarchy hunts down and destroys rogue chapters. Which it doesn't. Yes, the Sisters of Battle might be called to attack a rogue chapter, but tell me-- have you ever actually read any fluff since Rogue Trader that supports that having ever happened?

I feel like we've misuderstood each other. I know an epic book, or even slight fragment, hasn't been written to this effect, but we agree it's part of the nature of the Sisters of Battle, as the military arm of the Ordo Hereticus, to subjugate and purge any Chapter deemed heretical. It's what they exist for - to cleanse the Enemy within, including Rogue Imperial forces - be they Astartes, Guardsmen, PDF forces or a Mutant uprising. Just because we haven't read a direct account of it, doesn't mean it hasn't/wouldn't happen.

I agree that they don't police them strictly themselves - the Chaplains of the Chapter and the Inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus do that - but, as you rightly say, they would fight a heretical chapter (which I would deem as a policing action - like extreme riot police). Indeed, I can see no reason why a Canoness wouldn't attack a group of Astartes on a battlefield if they all suddenly started to throw down Thousand Son-esque psychic awesomeness :D

Anyway I've quoted some background from the current dex that supports such an action will have, perhaps inevitably, happened. I agree no direct fluff exists for it - yet...

"In conjunction with their chamber militant - the Adeptus Sororitas - also known as the Sisters of Battle - the Ordo Hereticus hunt down and destroy the most insidious threats to Humanity, the enemy within [i.e traitors of all kinds]: witchcraft, heresy and mutation [for all reasons I gave before]." P.2

"Reasons Witch hunters would fight Space Marines" P.42 - gives 6 reasons, one of which includes:
"The Chapter Master has unexpectedly manifested prodigious psychic powers, calling into question the psychic screening of the chapter. The Witch Hunters [hence their military arm - the Sisters of Battle] cannot allow an entire chapter of rogue psykers to come into being, and resolve to wipe them out before its too late."

You might not have heard about it because...
"Throughout history the Adepta Sororitas have been instrumental in many actions, some of which, due to their instigation at the hands of the secretive Ordo Hereticus, may never be written of in the official histories of the Imperium". P. 7

And if you can count DoW Soulstorm as fluff...then they most certainly have (although I know that's pushing it a bit).

In short. No, they don't police them themselves. No expansive fluff has been written to this effect. Yet it is only logical that should the Ordo Hereticus deem a chapter to be heretical they would call upon the Sisters to fight - as they are the predominant military arm for the Ordo and Ecclesiarchy. Just as Deathwatch are for the Ordo Xenos and Grey Knights the Ordo Malleus.

rbryce
07-05-2010, 04:14 AM
i think its more a case of which chapter would be eradicated. All of the current "big" chapters cant be wiped as many play those armies(lookin at you space pups, your heresy has continued too long!), people dont care to read about a chapter they've never heard of, and imperium vs. everyone else sells more, though id like to read more infighting and imperium vs. imperium screw ups. As it stands though, its not been rewritten, and it makes sense for the ecclisiarchy at least to be concerned with religious practices that may go "too far" in their eyes. The ordo hereticus would obviously have a stake in the purity checks of SM gene seed as they are primarily focussed on interior matters(and rogue chapters prove a serious threat). Nice article by the way. I personally put more of an imprint of myself on fluff, and use it as a background in which to set fantastical stories, and as such believe fluff is very personal to each person.

MarneusCalgar
07-05-2010, 05:36 AM
Boys, space marines have always selled very well for GW... I have no doubt they won´t kill any codex chapter... Even those with lesser players as Dark Templars or Dark Angels.

AirHorse
07-05-2010, 06:02 AM
This thread has been nicely derailed :p

In attempt to steer it back to the original point, I totaly agree. The 40k universe is just as deep philosophically as it is lore wise. Reflecting on the 40k lore and how it has incorporated so many different things made me realise how great a representation of humanity it really is.

Guessing where the inspiration from for different characters and aspects of the background(and realising that in some cases it couldve been from many different things from history!) helped me realise that people always incorporate their own experiences into everything they do. Its made reading through various historical or religious things so much more interesting realising that even though they arent written for the sake of entertainment that they are just like 40k, full of hidden ideas and messages, even if the writer incorporated them without realising :).

MutantLoveFist
07-05-2010, 10:31 AM
Boys, space marines have always selled very well for GW... I have no doubt they won´t kill any codex chapter... Even those with lesser players as Dark Templars or Dark Angels.

:o...and I never said they ever would. Sigh...I was only trying to prove that the SOB would fight Space Marines if the Ordo Hereticus demanded it, as this whole derailment started with SOB 'policing' Astartes. In part it's my fault - I meant to say 'The SOB police them "in a way" if ordered to by the Ordo Hereticus. I never intended to link such an act directly to universe-effecting fluff - like the Ultramarines being wiped out...of course that would never happen...but anyone is free to create chapters of their own and the stories to go with them...

Thank you all for your comments, but back to the original topic of fluff and influences did you know that Termagant is - n. A quarrelsome, scolding woman; a shrew. adj. Shrewish; scolding. [From Middle English Termagaunt, imaginary Muslim deity...? The little *******s...and that Terminator also means the dividing line between light and darkness on the moon? Yes, I know - I can use a dictionary! Anyway I find little things like this interesting (my life is that exciting) although I'm not saying that they have a direct meaning or value within the context of the fluff, it's philosophy or the human condition...

Melissia
07-05-2010, 10:32 AM
Yes, Sisters would fight Space Marines. Nevermind that GW hasn't had Sisters successfully do it since Rogue Trader...

That is not the same as Sisters policing Space Marines. The fluff has changed. Hell, half the time the Inquisition isn't even able to get Space Marines to do anything they want.

BlacknightIII
07-05-2010, 11:37 AM
I believe in the Space Wolves codex there is a story abour 3 sister battle companies attacked Fenris. There were others involved with the attack but I cant remember off the top of my head. They wanted to investigate charges or Gene Seed mutations or something like that and when they came to fenris the Space Wolves fought back. They eventually settled on a live and let live policy.

Melissia
07-05-2010, 01:23 PM
Which is silly of GW, as Sisters don't use "companies" (the rough equivalent is probably a Commandery).

Goes like this:

Sisters of Battle: Led by Abbess Sanctorum, unknown number of Orders
Order: Led by Canoness Superior, contains many (no known upper limit) Preceptories
Preceptory: Led by a Canoness Preceptor, contains ~1000 Sisters (five Commanderies)
Commandery: Led by a Canoness Commander, contains ~200 Sisters (several Missions)
Mission: Led by a Canoness or Palatine, contains "a few units" (probably referring to squads)

Fellend
07-06-2010, 03:59 AM
And this has nothing to do with the Sisters of Battle. Unless you're trying to say the Ecclesiarchy hunts down and destroys rogue chapters. Which it doesn't. Yes, the Sisters of Battle might be called to attack a rogue chapter, but tell me-- have you ever actually read any fluff since Rogue Trader that supports that having ever happened?

Soul drinkers series. SoB hunts down and tries to stop the fallen chapter and succedes in stopping a plauge daemon instead of the marines who runs off to live happily on a space hulk.
So not only is there fluff of SoB hunting down rogue chapters they also win... in a way. Not against space marines obviously... but at least they didn't lose...that much...

Leez
07-12-2010, 04:41 PM
Soul drinkers series. SoB hunts down and tries to stop the fallen chapter and succedes in stopping a plauge daemon instead of the marines who runs off to live happily on a space hulk.
So not only is there fluff of SoB hunting down rogue chapters they also win... in a way. Not against space marines obviously... but at least they didn't lose...that much...

The Soul Drinkers kill the Greater Daemon (several along the way), the SoB are just the largely ineffectual lap dogs of the Hereticus Inquisitor so blinded by stupidity . . . I mean faith, sent after the Soul Drinkers to stop them from doing the Emperors work and purifying their gene seed.

The Soul Drinkers are properly called "apostates" of the imperium, not heritics of the emperor.

scadugenga
07-12-2010, 05:00 PM
The history of Space Marines changed drastically at one point.

From Rogue Trader to Second Edition.

For example, at one point Space Marines were policed by the Sisters of Battle.

And, in the RT book there were "Military Police" space marines as well. Like they all had their own MOS's...

Melissia
07-12-2010, 05:47 PM
The Soul Drinkers kill the Greater Daemon (several along the way), the SoB are just the largely ineffectual lap dogs of the Hereticus Inquisitor so blinded by stupidity

Yes, and that is why I tend to ignore it as the trash fluff it is. Kinda like I ignore the trash fluff that is the Sons of Malice background.

Leez
07-12-2010, 06:11 PM
Yes, and that is why I tend to ignore it as the trash fluff it is. Kinda like I ignore the trash fluff that is the Sons of Malice background.

To be fair, its not just the SoB. I've yet to read any scrap of fluff reguarding SMs (all varients, Soul Drinkers excepted), IG, or SoB that didn't paint them as mindless idiots cowing to the lies and sloppe of the adeptus ministorum who in turn feed on it themselves. Though I've yet to exhaust all the4 fiction.