All-gun builds (Empire / Dwarves)

[Melissia]

So... do you think all-gunner builds are more/less viable in 8th edition? Basically thinking Handgunners/Thunderers with Mortars and Cannons as support, with a hero/lord focusing on leadership and dispelling.

These were the two armies I really wanted to play, more than any other, but really haven't had much of a reason to get into it until now. I know that you can fire two ranks now, so it seems like they got a buff, but I'd like an overall picture.

[Aenir]

I think they become more viable up to a point.

With the larger blocks coming, you can still only hit them with soo many shots before they are on you and cutting your troops down. They are also for the most part move or fire which also limits your manuverability. However they are strong, and decently ranged, which could come into play (I cant recall their stats off the top of my head)

EDIT: I would say go with Empire, they have just that bit more moveability so you can deal with quick threats that much easier :)

[Melissia]

Maybe a few cheap free company detachments to absorb the charge?

[Melissia]

Something like this... not quite "all-handgunner", but it should at least be adaptable.

Total: 750 Pts
Hero:
Battle Wizard w/2x Dispel Scrolls
Core:
Handgunners w/Full HQ
-- 22 Handgunners
-- Marksman w/Repeater Handgun
-- Detatchment: 10 Free Company
-- Detatchment: 10 Free Company
Handgunners w/Full HQ
-- 21 Handgunners
-- Marksman w/Repeater Handgun
-- Detatchment: 10 Free Company
-- Detatchment: 10 Free Company


C = Free Company
H = Handgunner
W = Wizard

CCCCC CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
CCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHCCCCC
CCCCCHHHHHWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHCCCCC

Edit: Actually the ones in front should be archers now that I think of it... archers counting as skirmishers and therefor you can shoot through them-- or is that not part of eighth edition?

[Aenir]

Slight flaw in that you can only have 1 scroll (this is an 8th ed list right?)

Perhaps instead of free company, Spearmen for the extra rank of attacks which should beef them up a bit more.

That or perhaps halbierds for str or Swordsmen for the extra ward save :)

[Beta_Ray_Bill]

Hero:
Battle Wizard w/2x Dispel Scrolls


Aren't dispel scrolls 0-1 now? I think I read that on warseer.

I hope so. I really hate scroll spam...

[Old_Paladin]

I know you like the idea of handguns; but I think crossbows are likely to be a bit better.
There are a few reasons for this. Mostly it comes down to range (and cost with dwarves); with premeasuring everything a lot of armies will be able to avoid handguns now.

In the newest podcast of Podhammer, the Wood Elf player was able to sit outside the 24" range of the Emipres handguns, fire volley shots with his elven archers, and used his fast cav with increased movement banner to spend a turn to move out of line of fire (as handguns are move or shoot, wheeling didn't help), then charge next move. The handgunners didn't even get off a shot.

I'd try to have some detachments as halbards (strength 4 in two ranks is pretty solid for normal humans); also, if you can move the points around try to make the detachments 15 (right now, if they suffer a single casualty they won't break ranks when flanking).

As to a skirmish unit... it's true line of sight now, so you should be able to see through them (they might give a cover modifier, I don't know).

[Melissia]

I imagine it will take some strategy ensuring that you can always fire them, but it's the theme that I like.

I'm not going to start a crossbows army because quite frankly I think crossbows are boring compared to muskets. What's more important to this thread isn't alternatives, but how to make this work in eighth edition. So suggested alterations to my list (like telling me about the 0-1 limitation on dispel scrolls-- thanks guys!) and strategy would be appreciated...

[The 57th]

I think a static gunline could work really well as long as you cause so much pain with your artillery that you force your opponent to come and deal with you - allowing your handgunners to have their moment of glory.

While personally I'd go with a Dwarvern force, the Empire would give you some more options in terms of Outriders, Pistoliers and maybe even a Steam Tank while keeping the 'Black Powder' theme of the army.
These more mobile elements should help you to deal with the units that will give your more static line problems.

[kallistosprom]

Volley gun for empire :-)

[Melissia]

Quick question about Detachments... can your unit fire through its own detachments in eighth edition? Or is that restricted to skirmishers?

Having a line of cheap free company to protect against the initial charge that you could still fire through would be cool. Archers are notably more expensive than that though.

[kallistosprom]

if they can see their target they can fire at their target. It's all LOS now

[Melissia]

I was referring to firing through your own troops.

[ZenPaladin]

Ok! So can you fire though your own troups or detachments? That's a maybe.. you see its true line of sight and there is not special rule allowing it in the Empire book.

If you have one unit backed up to another i'm going to say no.. because it's silly if the handgunners have their guns pointed directly into the back's of another unit.

Also! They do suffer a -1 for shooting through other units friend or foe! So.. -1 long range, -1 through cover = 6's to hit!

As others have pointed out the range leaves something to be desired as well. Wood elven units with long bows out range them and move freely through tree templates.. the templates provide.. COVER! So.. if someone with Longbows... Britonians, Wood Elves, HighElves.. decides to out shoot you? Well they probbily can.

Now! Your cheep artillery can make a differance! if you can protect it from flying harrasers.. and infiltrators and guys who charge sick amounts of distance. In Fantasy you don't kill a unit then hang.. if your speed bump units are not beefy enough to survive the charge they can be overrun and the unit that did the overunning can go straight on into what ever units are behind them.

So watch out for tough heavily armored killer knight units who can slaughter your small units whole sale. Say chosen chaos knights of Khorn who could put out 15+ wounds easy....with just one rank attacking.

[Melissia]

Yes, that's what I was asking for. And have the rules for skirmishers changed?

[ZenPaladin]

Indeed! Once apon a time you could snake out skirmishers and blob them up and general move them like 40K units... but no longer. Now skirmishers have an odd loose block formation that they are required to assume. One inch between each moddle forming something that looks not unlike a checker board fromt he diagram that I saw.

Shooting at skirmishers is negative one to hit.. there may be other rules as well... its possible that you don't suffer penalties for shooting through them.

I know for sure they don't have rank bonuses. Which means they are never stubborn which means they fold like cards when hit by a reall unit.

This is the big dang block of infantry edition. Huge units of handgunners were what was preposed in the article earlier. That large ranked unit of handgunners might become stubborn if its deep enough. And could be made wide enough to be a horde.

But honestly? With short range being 12 inches.. and armies charging 2d6 + 4 or more. (3d6 + 7 for cav?) I'm verry weary of the black powder army.

[Melissia]

Then put a detachment of archers up front to absorb the initial charge. They don't need to be stubborn, and it doesn't matter if they're destroyed or routed.

[ZenPaladin]

I think your immagining that when that detachment is destoryed that the oposing unit will stand there and be shot again but thats not the case.

When your front unit is routed.. the enemy will persue. Normaly another 2d6 inches. Which means that unless your handguners are over 12 inches away they may be persued into.. and the enemy unit will never suffer a shooting round from you.

Your gambling that they won't make contact with the unit behind the archers and its risky bussiness.

Lets try a 30 man unit of Handgunners vs a 10 man unit of Chaos knights.

30 shots. 5/6 hit for long range. long range = 24 inches.
7 hits, 4 wounds, 1 un-saved on the 3+
Chaos Knights march 14 Inches. Next round they chage.
You shoot again.
15 hits, 7 wounds 2 unsaved wounds on the 3+
7 knights remain they charge you stand and shoot.
Hitting on 6, 5 hits, 2 wounds probbily no kills.
They strike first in melee.
14 attacks, 9 wounds on the 3+, 9 kills you get no save.
you hit back.. but you can't hurt their 1+ arrmor save.

At that point youve efectively lost that particularfight.

If you put a unit in front its possible that you will loose that second round of shooting all together.

Now I'm not going to tell you that Black Powder is useless. I'm just saying don't think that shooting in an extra rank is all that. Charge ranges have increased and projectile ranges havent.

[Melissia]

Err, handguns have armor piercing, right?

So what is armor piercing in eighth?

[ZenPaladin]

Just a negative one. Its -1 to armor for 4 strength, -1 for armor piercing. Total of -2 vs their 1+ save. Though to be fair.. its not like your only going to be fighting chaos knights.

There are less tough cavalry you can do better against. And tougher ones/faster ones that you might do worse aginst.

[Old_Paladin]

They strike first in melee.
14 attacks, 9 wounds on the 3+, 9 kills you get no save.
you hit back.. but you can't hurt their 1+ arrmor save.

I think you've missed a little math at the end of that fight.

The gunners will get 16-18 attacks (depending on how the Knights are placed).
They will hit back on 4's (or 5's if they fail their fear check) and wound on 5's.
Also, a 1 always fails; so knights (and even jugger-riders) can always fail an armour save.

So the handgunners will still cause 2-3 wounds on average, and a knight might fail his save; the gunners have lost the fight but still have an extra rank so remain stubborn and both units are likely locked in combat.

[ZenPaladin]

well if they fail the fear they hit on 6's...
But assuming they pass with an 8 or 9 leadership
And hit 9 times and wound 3 times they should cause 0 wounds

They then take the break test which they will most likely pass. But the same thing happens again in their own turn.. and Again in the knights turn.

You still lose the fight and kill maybe 4 to 5 knights and your unit costs 240 points and takes up a big chunk of real estate.

Stubborn doesnt mean you win.. it means you delay. If youve got another unit that can get around that 10 wide block of gunners and charge in there AND they are armed with decent weapons like say the great swords then you will win.

Again though your spending too many points for too little return in my opinion.

Personaly? I plan on big beafy blocks of halbradiers with 10 man handgunner detachments to stand and fire when the enemy closes and a 10-15 man free company detachment to counter charge when the bad guys crash in.

[Old_Paladin]

well if they fail the fear they hit on 6's...
But assuming they pass with an 8 or 9 leadership
And hit 9 times and wound 3 times they should cause 0 wounds

They then take the break test which they will most likely pass. But the same thing happens again in their own turn.. and Again in the knights turn.

You still lose the fight and kill maybe 4 to 5 knights and your unit costs 240 points and takes up a big chunk of real estate.

Stubborn doesnt mean you win.. it means you delay. If youve got another unit that can get around that 10 wide block of gunners and charge in there AND they are armed with decent weapons like say the great swords then you will win.

Again though your spending too many points for too little return in my opinion.

Personaly? I plan on big beafy blocks of halbradiers with 10 man handgunner detachments to stand and fire when the enemy closes and a 10-15 man free company detachment to counter charge when the bad guys crash in.

Sorry, I heard that the new fear rules reduced you to weapon skill one when you failed the test [haven't seen the new book, it's just what I heard].


Spending 240 points to kill half a unit of chaos knights and bog them down for 4 turns (of moving and fighting) seems a good investment; those knights cost over 400 points.

[ZenPaladin]

Well. You have a pretty good point. Maybe I'm underestimating the hand gunner unit? So next question is would the halberds do the same job for cheaper? Though.. against softer targets the hand gunners are going to get a lot more mileage. And your right about the WS 1 thing as well...

Joo know? i was trying to be all authoritative here.. but i was pretty much dead wrong.

[Old_Paladin]

Well. You have a pretty good point. Maybe I'm underestimating the hand gunner unit? So next question is would the halberds do the same job for cheaper? Though.. against softer targets the hand gunners are going to get a lot more mileage. And your right about the WS 1 thing as well...

Joo know? i was trying to be all authoritative here.. but i was pretty much dead wrong.

It's alright; this is pretty much a totally new game now, everyone's going to make mistakes.

I think units with halberds are going to do pretty well in this edition; backed up by gunners/bowmen/crossbows to do some ranged damage to thin down enemy ranks.

And if those Knights had a mark of Nurgle, it would have gone even better for them (can they reduce enemies to WS 0 ?).

[Gooball]

All warmachines are now better
All ranged are now better
Simply put, Empire and dwarves can out-shoot everyone in the game with ease.

[ZenPaladin]

The steam tank has suffered quite the nerf in my opininon. Longbows range and volley fire plus the penalties for firing through and greater amount of terain make me thing high and wood elves have a decent shot at pin cushioning humans wh don't get out there to fight.

[Melissia]

Here's a ~1000 point list.

Heroes
(General) Captain w/Sword of Power, Pistol, Full Plate, Shield, Warhorse, Barding
Lvl 2 Battle Wizard w/Dispel Scroll, Wizard's Staff

Core
State Handgunners
-- 19 Handgunners
-- Full Command
-- Marksman w/Brace of Pistols
State Handgunners
-- 19 Handgunners
-- Full Command
-- Marksman w/Brace of Pistols
State Handgunners
-- 19 Handgunners
-- Full Command
-- Marksman w/Brace of Pistols

Special
Cannon
Cannon
Pistoliers:
-- 6 Pistoliers
-- Musician
-- Outrider



XXXXXXXXXX CC XXXXXXXXXX CC XXXXXXXXXX PPPP
XXXXXXXXXX CC XXXXXXXXXX CC XXXXXXXXXX PGPP

X = Handgunners
C = Cannon and crew
P = Pistoliers
G = General

Not sure where I'd put the Wizard though. Perhaps in the middle group?

[Aenir]

I would drop the barding from the captain, as he becomes slower than the pistoleer unit he is joined to. I also wouldnt put the Wizard IN the middle group, but I would keep it near them

[Melissia]

Ah, so the barding slows them down. Hrm. What to do with the remaining nine points then... as that is what I have after all those purchases....

[Aenir]

drop the outrider on the pistolers, (not really worth it in this particular list IMO) and stock the points up for something nasty (Van Horsstmans Speculum?)

[ZenPaladin]

Played my first two games of 8th on Saturday and I can say I was quite please with my guns. My first game was against Dark Elves and I didn't get a lot of value out of the handguns but I bought two Engineers with Pidgion Bomb and put one with the Helblaster and one with the Morter.

The Morter was a dead eye! I rolled three direct hits thanks to the re-roll but in the fourth round a double missfire and then 1 blew up my morter!

The helblaster was a holy terror. Now that the Engeiners ability works on it thanks to the Erata I had no fear and took half of each of his units and his charriot with this gun.

And the pidgion's scared my foe silly and blew up one of my engineers.

The Second game was against Lizardmen and while the Morter was less effective the Helblaster continued to dazzle by erasing almost an entire unit of warriors. My 12 man detachment working with my mage saw off another with a very suprising amount of kills on the normaly tough greenskins.

[Winter12]

Sorry can I just change the analysis of the Handgunners v the Chaos Knights a bit. Bearing in mind pre-measuring, I think it should go a little more like this:
Handunners first turn - no shooting as Knights are 24.5" away.
Knights move to 12.5" away.
Handgunners shoot at long range, 30 shots, 10 hit, 5 wound, 1-2 kills (we'll say two, why not?)
Knights charge and need 6 or more on 3 dice ignoring the lowest.
Handgunners stand and shoot, 10 hit, 5 wound, 1-2 kills (we'll say two again to be mean)
6 Knights make it to combat, 12 attacks (with champion), 8 hit, 6-7 kills (we'll say six).
16 Handgunners fight, 8 hit (passed fear test), 2-3 wound (we'll say 3), maybe one kill.
Knights beat Handgunners, but Handgunners are steadfast and should reform (have to stay 8 wide)
Next turn, same happens. Ditto turn after but this time the Handgunners have no more ranks and so have a leadership test to make with a hefty penalty.

Took three rounds of combat but the Handgunners are running away. There's only 4 Knights left mind you but we were pretty harsh to them (rounding all fractions against them)

Most importantly though, that's 240 points of Handgunners against 400 points of Chaos Knights, so that's pretty much what should happen.

[Dwarflord17404]

For a true gunline dwarfs are king here is why

missle troops are not push over's like Empire actually pretty fighty for missle troops. You could even run units of rangers which are both fighty and have a crossbow.

Magic defense. Nothing kills small units like the awesome that is magic in this edtion. Rune of spell breaking can be taken in multiples as it is not a scroll.


Crossbows are king 30" is awesome


War machine crew's are stuborn and can be upgraded with runes to match the job. Engineers as unit upgrade's


Anvil of doom. The ablity to slow your oppent is huge for a gun line


High leadership (9) versus's empire avg 7 dwarfs don't break easily.


Empire is an army that works best when you use all the elements (calavary, massed infantry, artilery)
where as dwarfs can focus on one element and do well

[B-rock]

i think the dwarven gun line is better and with them you can take some good sword and board guys. you need some combat guys as you already know and dwarves do it best. the dwarves also are toughter. i see it with dwaves but not with empire. dwarves have few artillery options but better ones.

[WereWolf_nr]

Dwarf shooting can do some serious damage if you pick your targets correctly. Their foil tends to be that Empire can field about 2x as many guns (granted they are less accurate) supported by knights if you so wish. They end up doing better than dwarfs because of their flexibility.

For a little extra range you can use crossbowmen, however your expected kills will go down with 5+ saves (or better).

A quick number crunch for Empire gave me 33.5 kills / 100 shots for gun and 27.8 kills / 100 shots with crossbow against T3 5+ save with no to-hit penalties. Dwarfs are about 50% higher for guns due to their better BS and guns.

[Aldramelech]

Dwarfs dont have a better BS. Both Humans and Dwarfs are BS 3.

[WereWolf_nr]

My bad, I messed up the +1 hit on the rifle with a better BS. It will throw the numbers off for the Dwarfs vs Empire paragraph.

[Dooley]

The Second game was against Lizardmen .........amount of kills on the normaly tough greenskins.

Arent Lizardmen Traditionaly Blue?

[BlindGunn]

Arent Lizardmen Traditionaly Blue?

Depends on when you started Lizardmen. First army book said they were multiple colours - it had everything from the rainbow... (My Lizards Skinks, Krox & Saurus are Brown. Terradons are blue, Cold Ones Green. Etc.)

2nd Army book onwards, seems they prefer the Blues...

[Majorcrash]

played in a tournament over the weekend, with my empire army. Since 8th came out been trying new things, one has been to get rid of the handgunners. they may reduce saves better than crossbows but that extra 6" in a whole nuther shooting phase i get , Mortar are great and i stiill love my pistoliers.

[WereWolf_nr]

played in a tournament over the weekend, with my empire army. Since 8th came out been trying new things, one has been to get rid of the handgunners. they may reduce saves better than crossbows but that extra 6" in a whole nuther shooting phase i get , Mortar are great and i stiill love my pistoliers.

How did you do in the tournament? How did the pistoliers work our for you?

[Drakkan Vael]

At 1000 Points, you might as well take 3 mortars, 1 cannon and 2 hellblaster. Coupled with crossbows, handguns, helbards.
Trust me, they vaporize about anything.
In our hobby club, we have an ongoing challenge to defeat them with any army in any legal combination. So far, all have failed (4 weeks in a row, 3 to 4 games a week).

Goblins and Dark Elves were closest to beating them.

Might not sound like fun but it actually is, especially watching the empire wasting one army after another.

I play High Elves, Goblins and Tomb Kiings, not the Empire (and plan to engage them with about 5 Giant Eagles).
Maybe that works.

As well: on larger point allowances this will change as the maximum amount of artillery is reached with just two more cannons (below 3000 Points that is).

[Jwolf]

1000 points is awfully small, and very advantageous to the cheap empire gunline. I'm very confident of my ability to tailor a list to beat that at 1k, but there isn't anything fun about that, either (ethereal undead, for instance).

[Drakkan Vael]

Fun is not a matter of (army-)size. It is fun to play even at such small sizes. It depends on whom you are playing and with what intention.

[Calgar33]

How about a large handgun unit with 2 handgun detachments? If they charge your large parent unit you get the parent unit shooting and the 2 smaller units shooting (w/o the -1 for shooting at a charging foe) if they charge at your detachments have the detachment flee (detachments do not cause panic in friendly units,) the bad guy either has to attempt to redirect his charge or he has to have a failed charge and your parent unit shoots him to death.

[HawaiiMatt]

A static gunline is one storm banner away from getting rolled over.
Miners, Ethereals, flying units, and cheap knights will all give this a very tough time. The all shooting empire even makes Beastmen look good. Once they get hit, or once a unit gets out of the arch, it's all over.

What does work better, is the detachment gunline in front of the parent units, supported by units that can actually win fights. A mix of swordsmen, great swords, and flagellants as rear units, and crossbows on point works really well.

Unlike a pure gunline, having blocks of infantry in the rear lets you reform and deal with threats that come from the flanks/rear, and have a chance against things that break through the front.

-Matt