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View Full Version : Realism in 40K (Author Style Discussion)



Magos
08-13-2009, 08:00 PM
Okay, Im not sure how to best apply my thoughts to the thread title. Im not even fully sure how best to phrase all of this.

I've been reading comments about two Warhammer 40K authors, Henry Zhou, and Dan Abnett, and some thoughts began to congeal in my mind while I was in the waiting room at the eye place. Anyway, here is my thought.

Why do people have such a big problem with Henry Zhou and Dan Abnett? (I know this not everyone who does). From what I've seen, people didnt like Henry Zhou becouse in some ways, some of his writing made to much sense. Divisions as a unit instead of Regiments in the Imperial Guard (which makes SO MUCH more sense), Inquisitors actually having to take political considerations into effect instead of just going "welp, inquisition here, everyone dies...)

In a way, I think the same can be said for Dan Abnetts stuff. He doesnt make his writing purely bolter porn. It isent in line with what people feel is the Main Fluff. People actually are human beings instead of everyone being superhuman killing machines or single men with the ability to annhilate planets at a whim.

Eh, Im not even sure how much of this makes sense

Kahoolin
08-13-2009, 08:13 PM
I always thought Dan Abnett was the most popular BL author? That's the impression I get from forums anyway, I've only read the Caiaphas Cain novels.

As to your question, if it's true that people don't like these authors because their characters behave like people instead of "bolter porn stars" as you put it, it must be because when people read a 40k book they want bolter porn and not in depth characterization. Wouldn't you be annoyed if you hired what you thought was a light, dodgy action movie and it turned out to be slow and dramatic with complex plot and characters? Sometimes you're just in the mood for silly over the top death and destruction.

ThePov
08-13-2009, 08:25 PM
I understand what you mean, and I think what some people don't realise when they pick up a 40K novel is that it's just that: A novel. It's not meant to be an end-all be-all sourcebook. It's meant to be a story that works within the grander framework of the 40K universe, and author's style is going to have a lot to do with that. As much as we all love super-powered killing machines, they actually aren't that relatable, and the point of a good novel is to get you to relate to the characters and their strugle on some level, if only a primal survival-oriented one. In fact, it is an accepted part of the 40K mythos that Space Marines, the flagship characters of 40K, are so far focused on being the perfect defenders of humanity that they may well have sacrificed their own humanity in the process. They are supposed to be above petty human emotions like love, fear, and pain, and thus they make bad characters for a novel. If a writer is going to do a 40K novel or short story, he HAS to take so liberties with the established game background, or it will be doomed to failure.

Now, I can't speak for Henry Zhou, having never read anything of his, but I've never had any problem with the work of Dan Abnett, especially the Gaunt's Ghost novels, which, when taken as a series, do a very commendable job of injecting the human aspect and the realitity of a unit with a high mortality rate and low recruit rate into the hellish battlefields of 40K.

BlacknightIII
08-13-2009, 11:21 PM
What people need is an amazing action packed 40k movie, with explosions, and epic scale battles and blood and gore and whatever else makes a good action movie. (Id watch it!)

Us that want interesting characters, moral dilemmas and creative plots we have the books.

Frankly i want a dark eldar novel, im tired of the imperium and space marines.

ThePov
08-13-2009, 11:38 PM
What people need is an amazing action packed 40k movie, with explosions, and epic scale battles and blood and gore and whatever else makes a good action movie. (Id watch it!)

Us that want interesting characters, moral dilemmas and creative plots we have the books.

Frankly i want a dark eldar novel, im tired of the imperium and space marines.
Good luck with that. At this point, the best way to get Black Library to notice anyone except the Imperium, and Chaos by way of an antagonist, is to write your own damn novel and send it to them. Statistically, a big enough number of people have at least one Chaos, IG or Space Marine army that the best business plan is to stick with the Horus Heresy and a few "modern era" Imperial Novels.

The idea of a movie isn't bad, but it would take a lot of work, would likely require that the upcoming Gears of War movie do well (Gears has much the samedark and violent atmosphere as 40K), and wouldn't be around the corner for at least 4 or 5 years, and thats IF GW is willing to do a deal with the corporate devil and grant some rights to a major Hollywood film studio, which is dubious in and of itself, as as far as I've noticed, GW likes to either keep things in-house or be the bigger person when it comes to negotiations.

Jearden
08-14-2009, 09:04 AM
Im going to agree with ThePov here. A lot of people pick up a 40k novel and expect it to me a written narative account of a table top battle with a little flavor thrown in.

I personally love Abnett, I havent read Zou yet, but Ive been considering picking up Emperors Mercy, and now after reading this, Im going to for sure.

Abnett inserts realism and humanity into his books. The characters have a conscience, and an idea that there is a bigger picture to what is going on outside of the current killing field. The good guys arent pure as the driven snow, they are real, they make mistakes, that might and have killed other characters. Some people want the good guys to wear a white hat, and the bad guys to wear a black hat and there not be any questions about who is who. Thats just not how it works in real life, and Abnett inserts that reality into his novels.

Its for me, and thats why I enjoy his books so much. For some others, not so much. And it is human nature to be outspoken about what you dont like.

Liquidice
08-15-2009, 11:40 AM
I always thought that Abnett's novels were the best by far. And if their was going to be a movie, i'd say it would have to be the Eisenhorn trilogy. It has great characters, and I think it is one of the only stand-alone books where you don't even have to now alot about the 40k universe to enjoy it. btw George Clooney would play Eisenhorn...

Forhekset
08-16-2009, 04:11 AM
I love Abnett like I love air.

He's one of the authors, maybe even the only one I've read, that actually attempts to ADD to the 40k mythology, if its just by coining terms like vox and pict and stuff like that, or by the slang and characterisation of people living in hive hab stacks. He injects so much flavour and style into it, whereas alot of other authors just take what we all know, and have them go about their business without adding anything real to it, just regurgitating what is already lying around and weaving their stories through it.

To me, that is the fundamental difference as to why Abnett is the best and people like Ben Counter should never be allowed to write novels.

BlueRonin
08-17-2009, 12:18 PM
No writes is going to win the praise of every reader, certainly not when he writes in a setting so open to interpretation as Warhammer 40,000.

I just finished the Ultramarines Omnibus, and what's mentioned here strikes a chord, because although I did enjoy the stories - especially "Warriors of Ultramar" and "Black Sun, Dead Sky" - I was really bothered my Graham's portrayal of Space Marines. A Space Marine Captain (no less) with all that emotional turmoil? I mean some of it was just downright immature!

I've worked with a number of Special Forces units and I've met quite a few hardcore soldiers that make all the Space Marine I've ever read about in fiction look like friggin' wusses... considering a lifetime of training - I mean, Psycho-Surgery for crying out loud! - and they run around with more doubt, fear, and petty jealously then most of our own real-world elite?

That's when I remind myself that it's just a story... and usually a good one at that :) and when I do come across stuff I don't like, I just forget about it - after all, I love 40k base don my own interpretation of 40k, and not everybody is going to agree with it! :)

Magos
08-19-2009, 01:06 AM
This is slightly unrealated to my own thread topic, but its 2 AM and I dont care

Did anyone notice references to the Ultramarines book mentioning Urial Ventris's father being a Spacce Marine as well?
If so
That makes no damn sense

rsheridan5
09-03-2009, 09:48 AM
This is slightly unrealated to my own thread topic, but its 2 AM and I dont care

Did anyone notice references to the Ultramarines book mentioning Urial Ventris's father being a Spacce Marine as well?
If so
That makes no damn sense

I thought that a member of his family was a Space Marine, but I don't remember his father being one.
Anyway, about these authors... I have really enjoyed McNeil's novels, and of course everything that Abnett has written.
I would like to make a point about Marines being more human than expected... It is 10000 years after the heresy, and the Marines are different. Some of the technology is lost, and even without that it became obvious during the Heresy that these supermen were in fact fallible.
On top of that, in "Dead Sky, Black Sun", it would be impossible for anyone, even someone as tough as a SM Captain, to not experience some doubt on a Chaos blighted world, where there appears to be no hope of escaping.
Honestly, it would be hard for us to relate to a souless killing machine, sure the action would be fun to read, but some depth is required to keep people engaged.

Alzer
09-03-2009, 10:26 AM
For starters, I'm a huge fan of Abnett. Really I do have a hard time with some of the characterization of Space Marines, and I can't blame the authors for making them more human. I feel it would be rather boring if the characters acted straight up like space marines, even if it would be more realistic. Really I prefer when stories are just through normal human perspective. (I.E. Eisenhorn, Cain, Legion). But really I've yet to run into anyone who wasn't a fan of Abnett, so hard to say anything otherwise.

As for the Space Marine father. He was probably born BEFORE his father became a Marine, and then raised by a single mother (or uncle or something). But with the Ultramarines dropping by ever 10-15 years to pick up recruits, it's not surprising that they could have family in the Astartes. Marines DO often leave families, wives and children, at home when they are recruited.

Soundgear
09-03-2009, 02:05 PM
It was a relative us his that was an Ultramarine, Lucian Ventris, member of first company that died at the Battle for Maccragge. Probably a distant uncle.

Ultramarine1
09-03-2009, 02:27 PM
Yeah, that was it. the timing was wrong for him to be his father though. It would make him like 700 yearsold.

schoon
09-03-2009, 05:04 PM
I've found that Dan Abnett and Matthew Farrer have the best ability to really capture the feel of the 40K background and immerse the reader in the book with the least noticeable suspension of disbelief.

However, so long as an author doesn't go too overboard, I'm willing to forgive some of the more "uber-heroic" elements if they also know the writer's craft.

Bad writing plus over-the-top situations get my thumbs down every time.

Magos
09-03-2009, 11:20 PM
Makes sense about the Uncle. Still, it does get annoying when some chapters seem to recruit at 9 or 10, but others at teenager or even guardsmen age.

rsheridan5
09-04-2009, 07:39 AM
If I remember correctly, it is a huge deal to have a member of your family become a Space Marine in Ultramar. Even if he had never met his uncle, he would have known who he was. Uriel probably would have been told very early in life about his uncle's exploits.
I also seem to remember that this particular person was placed in charge of Uriel's homeworld as a governor of some sorts. I may be mixing something up here...
The other thing is that Space marines have to be recruited early in life. They have to have thier implants extra organs and gene-seed put in during the right phase in thier life. Even back before the heresy, older warriors were rejected for "treatment." In the case of the Space Wolves most of Russ' human warriors from Fenris volunteered for the treatment anyway, and almost all of them died. I think that out of thousands only a couple of dozen survived, because it was too much for thier older bodies to handle.

Soundgear
09-04-2009, 10:09 AM
Honestly it seems to come down to the geneseed being used. Most Wolfs are around 12-14, but not much older, because of the violent reactions they have. Ultra & descendant chapters and implant a bit later, because their geneseed is kept fairly "pure". The only reason Uriel was recruited so young (age 6) is because of the Ultramar system's caste structure, and policy of recruitment. Unlike the wolves or even the Blood Angels, everyone on Ultramar is well aware of the Astares and their missing, and concider it a great honor to be chosen.

jcflanker
09-04-2009, 01:49 PM
I think it depends on what the reader is looking for, generally if the reader is a 13 year old boy they mostly want the “bolter porn” (great phrase by the way) they want Space marines kicking *** and as characters the protagonist is a one dimensional killer.

I like very good character development. I want to see the depth of human side of the characters. I think that Abnett, McNeill and Watson are by far the best at this.

I didn’t have a problem with any of the other BL books I have read. I know what to expect; action adventure in the nightmare world of the 41st millennium.

There is one glaring exception, Warrior Brood by C.S. Goto it was so bad I didn’t finish it. I also read Warrior Coven which wasn’t that bad. In my opinion Goto should go to the nearest tall building and jump off.

Dunadd
09-10-2009, 09:48 AM
Dan Abnett, Brian Craig and Henry Zhou are my favourite 40k and Warhammer Fantasy authors. I know a lot of people say they "change the lore", but the fact is "the lore" changes constantly. It changed in the Warhammer world with every edition of Warhammer that came out - and then later with every new army list book.

It changed in 40k from Rogue Trader to the later editions of Warhammer 40k. Aliens like the Tau and the Necrons werent mentioned at all in the first edition of 40k (in fact they werent mentioned at all until the last edition).

A lot of "the lore" in 40k is changed by GW just to maintain Games Workshop sales, so criticising 40k authors for changing it makes no sense.

Abnett, Craig and Zhou have some imagination and write original work.What they write fits with the rest of the 40k universe.

I've read lots of Abnett's and Craig's books, but only one of Zhou's so far. I really liked it, but the ending didn't make sense to me (and not because it conflicted with "the lore" but because he'd written that there were other, better options, but those weren't taken).

Nabterayl
09-10-2009, 12:54 PM
I think it depends on what the reader is looking for, generally if the reader is a 13 year old boy they mostly want the “bolter porn” (great phrase by the way) they want Space marines kicking *** and as characters the protagonist is a one dimensional killer.

I like very good character development. I want to see the depth of human side of the characters. I think that Abnett, McNeill and Watson are by far the best at this.

The thing that has always struck me about the "bolter porn" view of marines (or any other super-extra-elite soldiers in the 40K universe) is that real kickass killing machine soldiers aren't one-dimensional killers. Given that, why should we assume that space marines would be?

One-dimensional killing machines don't fit in with the universe, in my opinion. One-dimensional killing machines don't fall prey to Chaos gods that grew out of rage, hope, despair, and self-centeredness. One-dimensional killing machines don't have (or need, or benefit from) faith. They don't hate. They don't form bonds with their battle-brothers.

All of those are things that marines do. In order to do them, marines would need to be more than one-dimensional killers. Maybe not human, exactly, but more like a human than not. Exploring what it's like to be a space marine with a psyche that can fall prey to the Ruinous Powers, that has real faith in the Emperor, that genuinely and unself-consciously hates the enemies of the Imperium, that has real camaraderie with his battle-brothers - that's just taking the universe seriously, in my opinion.

jcflanker
09-10-2009, 04:08 PM
The thing that has always struck me about the "bolter porn" view of marines (or any other super-extra-elite soldiers in the 40K universe) is that real kickass killing machine soldiers aren't one-dimensional killers. Given that, why should we assume that space marines would be?

One-dimensional killing machines don't fit in with the universe, in my opinion. One-dimensional killing machines don't fall prey to Chaos gods that grew out of rage, hope, despair, and self-centeredness. One-dimensional killing machines don't have (or need, or benefit from) faith. They don't hate. They don't form bonds with their battle-brothers.

All of those are things that marines do. In order to do them, marines would need to be more than one-dimensional killers. Maybe not human, exactly, but more like a human than not. Exploring what it's like to be a space marine with a psyche that can fall prey to the Ruinous Powers, that has real faith in the Emperor, that genuinely and unself-consciously hates the enemies of the Imperium, that has real camaraderie with his battle-brothers - that's just taking the universe seriously, in my opinion.

Setting the Heresy novels aside all the 40k books that I have read with a Marine as a protagonist has had some supporting human character sometimes as a guardsman, Inquisitor and I remember one was even an Arbite. I believe this is part of a formula that has these human characters for the reader to identify with more than a more one dimensional Marine character. They also act as a foil to the almost super-human Marine where all human frailties and foibles are evident (fear, trepidation, doubt ect.).

Out of all the 40k novels I have read I feel McNeill writes the Marines the best and most human, giving them the most depth of character.

L192837465
09-11-2009, 10:10 AM
In my opinion Goto should go to the nearest tall building and jump off.

I see what you did there.

jcflanker
09-11-2009, 01:59 PM
I see what you did there.

I'm glad some one saw and mentioned that. lol.

imperialsavant
09-12-2009, 04:18 AM
I always thought Dan Abnett was the most popular BL author? That's the impression I get from forums anyway, I've only read the Caiaphas Cain novels.


;) I have always thought Dan, Graham McNeil & Sandy Mitchell (Caiphus) were the three greatest BL writers.
Dan makes all his charactors "Human" be they Gaunt & the Ghosts, Eisenhorn or Ravenor plus his Iron Snakes. Caiphus is just so believable & all the minor charactors are filled out e.g. Jurgen, Amberly etc.
Graham has written great HH & Ultramarine Books.
Havent got around to Henry yet but am looking forward to reading him & the new Cadian Blood novel which I have heard has great reviews. I also enjoyed the Shira Calpurnia novels but found Ben Counters efforts a fair bit "over the top".
I do read lots of other novels such as Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe series plus James Lee Bourke & John Sandlands so maybe I am a bit biased towards good writing with good charactorisation.

ThePov
09-12-2009, 06:48 AM
I do read lots of other novels such as Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe series plus James Lee Bourke & John Sandlands so maybe I am a bit biased towards good writing with good charactorisation.


Well, it's not like that's a bad bias to have. I've read my fair share of great fiction and my fair share of truly horrible fiction, and the former is almost always more enjoyable. And luckily, while I'm not say it's Faulkner or anything, most of the Abnett and McNiel I've read have proven closer to "good writing" than "bad writing," which, for fiction based on a tabletop game, is quite a feat.

Kahoolin
09-12-2009, 06:11 PM
;) I have always thought Dan, Graham McNeil & Sandy Mitchell (Caiphus) were the three greatest BL writers.
Dan makes all his charactors "Human" be they Gaunt & the Ghosts, Eisenhorn or Ravenor plus his Iron Snakes. Caiphus is just so believable & all the minor charactors are filled out e.g. Jurgen, Amberly etc.
Graham has written great HH & Ultramarine Books.
Havent got around to Henry yet but am looking forward to reading him & the new Cadian Blood novel which I have heard has great reviews. I also enjoyed the Shira Calpurnia novels but found Ben Counters efforts a fair bit "over the top".
I do read lots of other novels such as Bernard Cornwell's Sharpe series plus James Lee Bourke & John Sandlands so maybe I am a bit biased towards good writing with good charactorisation.The Flashman books by George MacDonald Fraser are awesome, if you like Sharpe. Read Flashman and you'll see that Caiaphas Cain is a blatant rip-off *cough* I mean "tribute."

I still enjoyed the Cain books though, the character of an accidental hero who thinks of himself as a cowardly fraud is so good that I love him whether he's in the 19th century or the 41st millenium...

I ahve read one other 40k book besides Cain and it was a Shira Calpurnia one called Crossfire. I really enjoyed it.

imperialsavant
09-14-2009, 06:27 PM
The Flashman books by George MacDonald Fraser are awesome, if you like Sharpe. Read Flashman and you'll see that Caiaphas Cain is a blatant rip-off *cough* I mean "tribute."

I still enjoyed the Cain books though, the character of an accidental hero who thinks of himself as a cowardly fraud is so good that I love him whether he's in the 19th century or the 41st millenium...

I ahve read one other 40k book besides Cain and it was a Shira Calpurnia one called Crossfire. I really enjoyed it.

;) Yes I started reading the Flashman series looong before I got into playing 40K & loved the way Flashman was always the "unknown soldier" in many of the adventures & how he always managed to come out the "Hero" MacDonald-Frazers knowledge of Milatery History was Awesome! Have you read the most recent?? Flashman on the March?? One of the best in MHO. Always felt sad we never got a full account of Flashman during the American Civil War. Now that would have been one hell of a story.

Re Cain & Flashman, Sandy Mitchell in a forward in the collection of 3 Cain novels & short stories give a nod to both Flashman & Blackadder as part of his inspirations. For Jurgen, think Baldrick!!

I have read all 3 of the Shira Calpurnia novels & whilst I did not enjoy the second one as much, the third "Blind" i can really recommend.:)

By the way did you know the Shira author lives in Canberra??