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Drunkencorgimaster
08-14-2009, 03:07 PM
The game's setting is fantastic. Humanity in the future balances on a knife's edge for survival in a galaxy of mutants, monsters, and mayhem. However...occassionally you run across a storyline or theme that might strike you as just a bit stupid. What GW fluff would be best flushed into the Eye of Terror?

Mike X
08-14-2009, 08:23 PM
What GW fluff would be best flushed into the Eye of Terror?

The background of the Squats.

Oh wait, already done!

I'd have to say the story of the Soul Drinkers. It's so heavily flawed it's ridiculous...

Dan-e
08-14-2009, 08:38 PM
I personally find this hard to say, but really the only thing about 40k fluff that i don't like is often limited to the fluff that i know and among the stuff i know i would have to say i dislike the concept that there is an assumption that EVERY necron is following the plans of a C'tan.

If there was so many C'tan before then it would be easy to assume they each had their own private necron force. As these C'tan fell to other C'tan or old ones then those necrons would be own their own, some joined other but i like to think that others are following the goals of their own Lords.

I mean i love the C'tan but i think the concept of a Necron force that is just doing its own thing outside the motavtions of feeding their C'tan gods with souls is cool.

Levitas
08-14-2009, 09:04 PM
Primarchs.

Because they are so cool. But there has never been models or rules. So instead there have been many sub standard conversions and bad home brew rules. We have titans, Ctan, and DPs. But we never get Primarchs, ever in any edition.

So I would rather they were gone... or GW actually give them some attention. Apoc pre-heresy edition.

ratpack
08-14-2009, 10:38 PM
I believe there was a model for Leman Russ.

I like the heroics of Space Marines, but when I try to rationalise some numbers (amount of ammo which is carried by marine, number of marines in the universe, number of marines in a chapter vs. attrition rate, etc., you know these things, they are already discussed elsewhere) by comparing fluff to tabletop it does not sit well. Personally I believe there must be more marines and the way they are portrayed should be down toned. Also, they need smaller bullets (bolts, if you will) or bigger clips :)

ThePov
08-14-2009, 11:19 PM
Honestly, Squats are my only pet peeve in the entirety of 40K. The other little inconsistencies I can deal with and even justify (I believe there was a thread here a little while ago about a 1984 doublethink approach to 40K fluff, which I quite liked.), but Squats annoy me, mostly because people insit on bringing them up. 40K is NOT "WFB in space." It would be boring if it was, I'd rather just play Fantasy if that werre the case and cut out the middleman. Squats were ogtten rid of for a reason, and the fact that everybody keeps bringing them back up is something I don't get. In various fantasy lores, a lot of the time Dwarves are reclusive and prefer to stick to their mines, only fighting when forced to. It would seem to me that such a race, given a whole galaxy to mine and hide in, would be able to avoid major inter-stellar politics and conflict entirely. Squats are no longer a part of the 40K mythology. Get over it.

I have no problem with the Demiurg, however. There is room for a race of short, stout engineers and miners in the 40K universe at large, but as one of the smaller Xenos race that do not play a big enough part in the grander events of the galaxy to warrant a full blown army. An appearance in a specialist game, or even a Kroot-like ally to an existing race (AdMec, if GW ever actually comes out with an AdMec codex), however, is fine by me. In fact, I encourage this, to give the mythology are wider scope, to show there are other things out there besides Orks, Humans, Tau, Necrons, Eldar, and 'Nids. Demiurg are the poster-race for this idea.

Aldramelech
08-15-2009, 12:05 AM
The Blood Angels. Fine chapter, pretty army, berserker rage lurking in the background, no problem with any of that. But Fangs? come on........... Are they not hard enough? Do they need to "imply" their some kind of Vampire throw backs?

Mongo44
08-15-2009, 12:08 AM
While Squats did indeed suck....I have to say I've always hated Ratlings. The Soul Drinkers. Most of the Tales of Heresy book, Abnett and McNeils contributions excepted. The portrayal of the Word Bearers in Battle for the Abyss. And that's just off the top of my head...

ChaosLord127
08-15-2009, 12:16 AM
I hate the new Chaos Space Marine fluff. It was cool when they were galactic conquerors, but now they are little more then pirates. They need to bring back legions.

Dragon_Cultist
08-15-2009, 01:58 AM
I dislike some of the fluff around sm that is rarely used, such as the suposed memory gain from eating their opponents flesh. I have never seen it used, same for the acid saliva to a lesser extent. Also the necron world engien in the sm codex was really under done and didn't apper well thought out.:(

Inquisitor McSagington
08-15-2009, 03:08 AM
The game's setting is fantastic. Humanity in the future balances on a knife's edge for survival in a galaxy of mutants, monsters, and mayhem. However...occassionally you run across a storyline or theme that might strike you as just a bit stupid. What GW fluff would be best flushed into the Eye of Terror?
Abaddon being built up as this super awesome badass-when he's had 14 trys and still can't get out of the Eye.
Someone Spawn him and put Peturabo in charge please?

TSINI
08-15-2009, 05:56 AM
my least fav has to be the ... i cant even bring myself to speak their name.... the ..... the.... squats :(

i'm not a fantasy fan, if i was, i'd play fantasy. when it comes to sci-fi, who really needs space dwarves that for no reason whatsoever could drive landraiders....

if they want little green men driving mechanical wonders, they should at least have some consistencies, make them an underground race driving around in subterrainean vehicles, but stick to it, don't suddenly have them all racing around on trikes and piloting imperial landraiders.

and the players that love them, oh god do they smell lol

Drunkencorgimaster
08-15-2009, 11:14 AM
Wow. These are great posts.

I totally agree with Ratpack, the ammo-allocation-usuage is a problem. The fluff often clashes with the game. In books warriors make incredible shots and do feats that don't come close to the tabletop game. Conside how short-ranged all the weaponry is in the minatures game, for example.

Dragoncultist, you are right about the acid glands and eating dead flesh thing. That seems non-Space Mariney somehow.

Inquistitor McSaggington, you have nailed it! I could not agree more. We hear how freakin' scary Abbadabbadoo is supposed to be, but the no-talent ***-clown could not find his way out of a large Walmart let alone out of the Eye of Terror. The Nids seem like a much more serious threat than some 10,000 year-old geezers in 1980s Heavy Metal Halloween outfits.

Drunkencorgimaster
08-15-2009, 11:20 AM
My Gripe with the 40k fluff is very general. It seems that there is a tendency towards sophmoric overstatement in a lot of the supporting narratives. "Millions died!" "Thousands of ships clashed!" "Billions Served!" In some novels this is toned down, such as the Commissar Cain books. Other works just go off the deep end. There is so much near-death-close-call nonesense in the Space Wolves books (that even as a some ones who plays that army) I find myself turned off by it.

the_killer23
08-15-2009, 12:13 PM
Wow. These are great posts.

I totally agree with Ratpack, the ammo-allocation-usuage is a problem. The fluff often clashes with the game. In books warriors make incredible shots and do feats that don't come close to the tabletop game. Conside how short-ranged all the weaponry is in the minatures game, for example.

Dragoncultist, you are right about the acid glands and eating dead flesh thing. That seems non-Space Mariney somehow.

Inquistitor McSaggington, you have nailed it! I could not agree more. We hear how freakin' scary Abbadabbadoo is supposed to be, but the no-talent ***-clown could not find his way out of a large Walmart let alone out of the Eye of Terror. The Nids seem like a much more serious threat than some 10,000 year-old geezers in 1980s Heavy Metal Halloween outfits.

Let's see what Abaddon did.

A. Was defeated by Cadia 12 times
B. Blew up Macharia
C. Was defeated by Cadia for the 13th time

Schnitzel
08-15-2009, 12:30 PM
Tabletop weapons/ammo stuff definitely. A standard issue M16A4 with iron scope IRL is a more suitable sniper rifle (range wise) than compared to any of the weapons on table top. You're mini's aren't even capable of shooting the equivalent of a football field!

Aldramelech
08-15-2009, 01:14 PM
But it is a game guys........... If we applied real world ranges and accuracy to the 40k universe, games would last 5 mins and wouldn't be much fun.

Coming from a service background myself I am well aware of the capabilities of modern weapons, but equally as an amature historian I am also aware how those effects are significantly degraded under actual combat conditions.

The Bolter doesn't really have a real world equivalent and neither has the lasgun so its hard to quantify performance. Also 40k has no real ground or time scale that I am aware of (unlike most historical sets) so how many bolter shells/lasgun shots are being fired in one round of shooting? Hard isn't it lol

I think as a simulation 40k is pretty poor, as a game its the most fun you can have with your cloths on! lol

Psychosplodge
08-20-2009, 02:16 PM
The heresy books, yeah i'm reading them, and for the most part enjoying them, but they're explaining something that was always part of the mystery.
The contradictions/changes in background to races/chapters whatever everytime theres a new edition, for example all salamanders now have black skin and red eyes, but older earlier models in wd aren't painted that way, major no - annoying yes, and I don't even collect them lol.

Soundgear
08-20-2009, 03:24 PM
If you get to hate on the Salamander change, I get to hate that my beloved 1991 Blood Angels have to go from orange to red. If they weren't suppose to be orange, why is orange called "Blood Angel Red"? As far as I know, that has never been explained. 2nd Edition came, and BAs are now red. Anyone how still has a copy can see a "mixed" BA army in almost every color photo. Sees like the design boys weren't too hip on the idea, either.

Mike Dunford
08-20-2009, 04:28 PM
Given how long the sq*ts have been gone, do they even count as fluff anymore?

My own least favorite fluff is probably not the fluff itself as much as the inconsistency - for example, the changing nature of Salamander skin tone, which has invalidated a fair amount of paintwork (including some of GWs older stuff). If they're going to carefully control who writes for BL, is it really too much to ask that they club authors over the head and send them back to fix inconsistencies between new stuff and existing fluff?

As far as the whole ranges thing goes, that's really just a feature of tabletop war gaming in pretty much any scale. Either you play with figures and have one figure represent many individuals, and move really, really tiny distances, or you just have to extend your willing suspension of disbelief to the tabletop. That's true even for smaller-scale systems like Epic and Flames of War. About the only way you could have a "realistic" ranged game would be to set up a full-on cityscape every time, where max range doesn't matter because you're never going to have LoS that far.

eldargal
08-20-2009, 05:34 PM
The Tau. We had a spiffy little universe full of different races each with their own motivations, with no clear good guys. The Imperium were not exactly good, being a dictatorial theocracy, the Eldar were hardly good if you weren't Eldar etc. etc. Then the Tau come along with their stupid looking gear and their 'greater good' rubbish and spoil a perfectly decent dystopian future. Bah, humbug.

Re: Abbadon, it is Abbadon the Despoiler, not Abbadon the Conqueror, he causes immense damage (ie despoils) to the Imperium then scoots off back home for a rest and a creme de menthe.

Schnitzel
08-20-2009, 06:12 PM
The Tau aren't that good....
There's something up with that Ethreal caste... and I'm sure the "Greater Good" has some sinister implications that have yet to be discovered.
Besides, they're xeno-scum. :p

EmperorEternalXIX
08-20-2009, 07:15 PM
The Codex Astartes and the weird limitations it imposes on SM squad structure. I don't mind that they are limited to fiive or ten men, and I can accept other stuff...but when you have one unit that is only allowed certain gear due to accordance with the Codex Astartes, and another unit in the same book with huge freedom of weapon choices (Vanguard/Sternguard, Command Squads, etc), it is kind of oxymoronic.

BuFFo
08-20-2009, 07:40 PM
Least favorite fluff is the insult to injury write off of Squats into oblivion.

ChaosLord127
08-20-2009, 07:56 PM
The Tau. We had a spiffy little universe full of different races each with their own motivations, with no clear good guys. The Imperium were not exactly good, being a dictatorial theocracy, the Eldar were hardly good if you weren't Eldar etc. etc. Then the Tau come along with their stupid looking gear and their 'greater good' rubbish and spoil a perfectly decent dystopian future. Bah, humbug.


Actually, the are Communist. They all share almost everything, they are all equal, except the leaders, and they have Stal- I mean "Reeducation camps". They also sterilized and killed off most the human population of Kronus. (If you beat Dark Crusade with the tau).

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but in my book, Communism= Bad.

person person
08-20-2009, 08:05 PM
If you look at most pic.s of marines in their 4th ed. codex e.g. Chaplain leading epic charge, barely anyone has a bolter, one guy has double bolt pistols, which is awesome!!!

My least favourite piece of fluff is probably what EmperorEternalXIX and other innaccurate fluff to tabletop interpretations.

gwensdad
08-20-2009, 08:07 PM
Least favorite fluff that seems to have codex support: Blood Angels get overcharged engines (i.e. faster vehicles) but chapters that depend on mobility (White Scars, Raven Guard) don't.

gwensdad
08-20-2009, 08:12 PM
The Tau aren't that good....
There's something up with that Ethreal caste... and I'm sure the "Greater Good" has some sinister implications that have yet to be discovered.
Besides, they're xeno-scum. :p

Everytime I hear "Greater Good", I think the 7th Harry Potter book and Grindelwald (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Gellert_Grindelwald)

thecactusman17
08-20-2009, 08:42 PM
As a player of the army in question, some of the Sisters of Battle and other Witch Hunters fluff is more over-the-top than intersting. The named Inquisitor most notably. Kills everybody. The DH Inquisitors were at least rational, the WH inquisitors are all apparently morons. the sisters aren't much better. Annoys the hell out of me.

but the most egregious new fluff is definitely the crap that made its way into the Space Marines codex. The new garbage about the slowly ressurrecting primarch etc. just feels like a desperate grab for attention in a stale army.

The Codex astartes needs to die. It's killing the Space Marines.

Legionary
08-21-2009, 01:34 AM
C'Tan. All of the background relating to them is contrived and silly (in a bad way).

the one
08-21-2009, 02:42 AM
I think what I think has already been said by most of the people.

Squats

I just hate people who just bring them up all the time. They gone.
Good Riddence

Kahoolin
08-21-2009, 04:33 AM
I don't understand why Ogryns have to be stupid. What, big people are dumb? Nonstandard gravity makes you retarded? :confused:

I think the idea of abhumans is cool and interesting in itself (not to mention realistic), but for some reason GW decided to use it solely as an excuse to import some goofy fantasy races into 40k.

ZenPaladin
08-21-2009, 08:03 AM
One think that kind of irks me but I don't really hate is the advance of technology in the imperium. The new things like Land Speeder Storms and Land Raiders.

It seems like they are sliping away from the concept that the tech in the Imperium degrades rather than progresses. And I always like the highly mystic advanced tech concepts.

But in general I don't have any serious complaints... Maybe Dark Eldar? Why don't they just worship Slannesh and get it over with? How are they even still around? I mean if the eldar are a dwindling race down to a few million surely the Dark Eldar are even smaller? And should all be gone by now? But then I havent actualy read their codex so...

Savark
08-22-2009, 02:04 AM
But in general I don't have any serious complaints... Maybe Dark Eldar? Why don't they just worship Slannesh and get it over with? How are they even still around? I mean if the eldar are a dwindling race down to a few million surely the Dark Eldar are even smaller? And should all be gone by now? But then I havent actualy read their codex so...

I thought they did already? meh oh well.
Least fav fluff? hmm...
Probably the fact that GW over-elaborate everything. For once can they not just give us a straight answer and stop being dark angels?

EmperorEternalXIX
08-22-2009, 02:13 AM
But in general I don't have any serious complaints... Maybe Dark Eldar? Why don't they just worship Slannesh and get it over with? How are they even still around? I mean if the eldar are a dwindling race down to a few million surely the Dark Eldar are even smaller? And should all be gone by now? But then I havent actualy read their codex so... Very cool race, but I feel like they have little place in 40k as a military threat.

In the books, they are often depicted as a planetary raiding force and are often cut down by the thousands. The Space Wolf fleet in Tales of Heresy destroys enough of them that they were raiding an entire planet; in Brotherhood of the Snake Damocles Squad eradicates "a thousand upon a thousand" I think, in a very poorly-written and vaguely described battle. In another short story in Let the Galaxy Burn, a captured Imperial man helps cause two Dark Eldar sects to go to war with each other.

I guess there would be a good amount of them since they came about long before the whole Eye of Terror thing that made the Eldar homeworlds crap out (at least I think that's the tale...correct me if I'm wrong, imperial record is fuzzy on Eldar backstories, hehe).

Still, the idea that sadistic raiders even bother to engage superior military fighting forces seems wrong to me. All the other races in 40k are armies; the Dark Eldar are just a roving band of lunatics who raid planets for slaves. I don't realistically believe that they could stand up to, say, a guard regiment or a company of space marines (especially when the books show them getting slaughtered by the thousands by handfuls of men!)


One think that kind of irks me but I don't really hate is the advance of technology in the imperium. The new things like Land Speeder Storms and Land Raiders.

It seems like they are sliping away from the concept that the tech in the Imperium degrades rather than progresses. And I always like the highly mystic advanced tech concepts. I like this stuff too, but they don't really build more. I think of it more like they have discovered archaeotech on different planets as the battles have raged on. The 40k story's timeline doesn't advance, but they advance the worsening events by making our codex entries change. I actually kind of dig that the tech-adepts on Mars dug deep into the vaults to put out new bolter ammo and new land raider variants, etc. to help the war effort. It adds to the concept of the Time of Ending -- that humanity is losing the war, and is in a desperate defensive setup.

Morgrim
08-22-2009, 05:11 AM
But in general I don't have any serious complaints... Maybe Dark Eldar? Why don't they just worship Slannesh and get it over with? How are they even still around? I mean if the eldar are a dwindling race down to a few million surely the Dark Eldar are even smaller? And should all be gone by now? But then I havent actualy read their codex so...

Dark Eldar are to Slaanesh as daemonhost using Inquisitors are to the Chaos Gods.

They don't worship chaos, but they're willing to use some methods associated with them. And know better than most exactly how dangerous they are.

I think any fluff that was several thousand dark eldar attacking one location has been badly botched. They are known for rapid in and out strikes, not for sticking around with heavy resistance. If there are large amounts of space marines cutting them down, any smart DE is going to be diving straight back into the webway.

Leave the battles of attrition to the Guard.

Skragger
08-24-2009, 11:02 AM
Missiles that can crack a planets crust and effectively break the planet. How silly a concept is that when the game itself is (mostly) based around ground combat?

"Oh look, there's a hundred million orks down there! Well, lets send the guardsmen in to get slaughtered wholesale!"
"Sir, we could just use the planet-cracking miss-"
"No! Send in the clow-er.. guardsmen!"

Bloodthirster
08-25-2009, 07:00 AM
The fact that Ultramarines are the best SM ever for a start, because there not! And the Dragon on mars aswell , mainly because I don't think the Dragon will ever be awakened so to me, it seems kind of pointless.

Drunkencorgimaster
08-25-2009, 08:40 AM
Ultramarines are the SM ever, because there not! And the Dragon on mars to

Not to be a grammar ****...but what in the Maelstorm does any of that mean?

Jiggs
08-25-2009, 09:19 PM
Personally I don't like the whole cult of the machine god thing and how the adeptus mechanicus has to go and perform special rituals and rub sacred oils on the vehicles. They're just vehicles why do the space marines have to think of them as relics and how some vehicles are rare because of lost knowledge..... its a little thing called reverse engineering if you forget how to build it slowly disassemble it and remake the parts and there you go you have more uber death machine rolling across the battlefield. The imperial guard can have virtually an endless supply of tanks and weapons but not the mightiest warriors mankind has produced because of slow rituals.

Kahoolin
08-26-2009, 01:48 AM
Personally I don't like the whole cult of the machine god thing and how the adeptus mechanicus has to go and perform special rituals and rub sacred oils on the vehicles. They're just vehicles why do the space marines have to think of them as relics and how some vehicles are rare because of lost knowledge..... its a little thing called reverse engineering if you forget how to build it slowly disassemble it and remake the parts and there you go you have more uber death machine rolling across the battlefield. The imperial guard can have virtually an endless supply of tanks and weapons but not the mightiest warriors mankind has produced because of slow rituals.I'm pretty sure guard tanks are blessed and made in admech factorums with holy oils and stuff, exactly like SM gear. It's just how the imperium is, if you take that away you lose the whole "gothic medieval people in space" vibe that is a huge part of the 40k background.

Not wanting to argue with your opinion, of course people are going to hate different things. I'm just surprised, I think the superstitious machine stuff is some of the coolest imperial fluff.

Aldramelech
08-26-2009, 08:37 AM
Eldar..........

They cant even spell Monkey properly!:rolleyes:

Like to hear that **** around the Librarian! lol

Valkerie
08-28-2009, 01:11 PM
Tabletop weapons/ammo stuff definitely. A standard issue M16A4 with iron scope IRL is a more suitable sniper rifle (range wise) than compared to any of the weapons on table top. You're mini's aren't even capable of shooting the equivalent of a football field!

The trouble with the ranges is, if they had ranges equivalent to real life, you would have to play it in the parking lot, rather than on a table. Back in 1st ed., GW stated that 1 inch equaled 2 meters. In the real world, a Dragon launcher, the equivalent of a missile launcher in the game, has a range of 1,000 meters. That works out to 500 inches, or almost 42 feet. Add in the ranges for bigger weapons, like Ma Deuce or tank guns, and it quickly gets out of hand.

Valkerie
08-28-2009, 01:15 PM
My Gripe with the 40k fluff is very general. It seems that there is a tendency towards sophmoric overstatement in a lot of the supporting narratives. "Millions died!" "Thousands of ships clashed!" "Billions Served!" In some novels this is toned down, such as the Commissar Cain books. Other works just go off the deep end. There is so much near-death-close-call nonesense in the Space Wolves books (that even as a some ones who plays that army) I find myself turned off by it.

I agree with you on this. It seems like the fate of the universe hangs on the outcome of every battle ever fought. It would be nice to read about a battle that wasn't life or death for the Imperium.

Valkerie
08-28-2009, 01:26 PM
I don't understand why Ogryns have to be stupid. What, big people are dumb? Nonstandard gravity makes you retarded? :confused:

I think the idea of abhumans is cool and interesting in itself (not to mention realistic), but for some reason GW decided to use it solely as an excuse to import some goofy fantasy races into 40k.

The fluff from RT has the Ogryns as being the descendants of convicts dumped on prison planets. Prison planets don't have anything on them, so Ogryns had to become large enough to survive. They're not intellectual, but they are absolute geniuses at surviving. Granted, that's a long time ago, and they may have changed it by now, but it puts their stupidilty in a slightly different perspective.

Fantomex
08-28-2009, 02:17 PM
Ferrus Manus dying.
Thats it.
I can cope with Squats, Tau, Abaddon the Inept Despoiler, retcons, errors, anything.
But when you start killing my primarch, then I get angry!

jeffersonian000
08-28-2009, 06:28 PM
My biggest beef with 40k is that there is so much written, virtually everyone new to 40k in the past 10 years has no idea what was written before. Such as:

Imperial Guard use to be composed of Humans, Beastmen, Squats, Ratings, and Ogryn and they use to have access to Robots, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Jet Bikes, Bikes, Jump Packs, and Dreadnoughts; Roboute Gilliman was an Imperial Commander back then.

Space Marines were combat drug and cyberneticly enhanced murders in powered vacuum armour with ... Robots, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Jet Bikes, Bikes, Jump Packs, and Dreadnoughts; Ultramarines were the 13th chapter of the 3rd founding, Dark Angels wore black, and Salamanders were the original Green Marines.

Dark Eldar were members of the Harlequins. Eldar were allies of the Inquisition. Orks were green blooded reptilians, not red blooded fungus. Genesteelers were not Tyranids (but Orks may have been, as Squiggs were found with both Ork and Tyranid forces).

Oh! Disk Riders of Tzeentch where Chaos Space Marines in both Fantasy and 40k.

Of course, fluff has drifted over time. Many of the above examples have changed either do to retroactive reconstructions of the 40k universe or through the simple method of just not mentioning it ever again.

For example, Squats became their own army, and then were dropped because GW was unable to define the concept of “intellectual property” until afterward. Beastmen were dropped out of Imperial Guard as they were too close to the than concept of chaos and mutation, which flew in the face of then newer fluff about purity of the human species and purging of mutation. Robots left the fold due to reason never really define but probably related to intellectual property issues. Guard lost all of their “Marine” Gear when they gain Tanks and APC’s of their own. Everyone lost Jet Bikes other than Eldar (and Dark Eldar when they stopped being harlequins/pirates and became non-Slaanesh pain-worshipers). At some point, Roboute Gilliman became a primarch, the Ultramarines became the 13th Legion, and Dark Angels became green. Orks became fungus, ‘Steelers became ‘Nids, Squiggs became an Ork-only sub-species, and Squats/Beastmen went away forever.

And then there are the Necrons. They started out as the “undead” of the 40k universe; robots from a bygone time, activating and rising from the dust to defend the shattered ruins of their past … nope, scratch that, they are ancient aliens that covered themselves in metal so that they can be the slaves of greedy star-gods and fight chaos by killing everything, which only feeds chaos as living souls are released, etc, etc.

Tau. Where do we start with Tau? Superior technology, inferior history. All for the greater good, even if it means doing evil things. Everything has its place, and that place is slavery or death; but it’s all for the greater good!

Chaos Marines. The losers of a galactic civil war and the champions of the chaos gods. They were legion, they were strong, they were plenty, and now they are only the Black Legion as GW can’t be bothered to include rules for fielding factional armies anymore.

On technology. The Imperium of Man is a stagnant society where progress is heresy, failure is heresy, and initiative is heresy. Everything that is “new” is ancient, just seldom used and a rare find, that is until some new fluff comes along and changes the paradigm yet again. “It may be heresy, but it’s been in use for a 1,000 years and it just saved you butt. I guess that means it’s not heresy.”

Now don’t get me wrong, more recent fluff has been filling the holes left open for years, yet the more recent fluff still glosses over established fluff as if everyone knows it so therefore it can be ignored or over written when older backgrounds get in the way of dramatic license because the authors forgot.

SJ

imperialsavant
08-28-2009, 07:20 PM
The Blood Angels. Fine chapter, pretty army, berserker rage lurking in the background, no problem with any of that. But Fangs? come on........... Are they not hard enough? Do they need to "imply" their some kind of Vampire throw backs?

:D Agree BAs do not need Fangs! Space Wolves however DO!:p

Exitus Acta Probat
08-28-2009, 08:12 PM
The invention of an entire race that serves a purpose already covered (basic weak delivery system for mass shooting, IG), does it better, and was only put in to appeal to the Manga crowd...and then dropped the only vaguely interesting baseline fluff (the VERY slightly native american feel) from the first incarnation to the second codex (so that it wouldn't smack of even ANYTHING original).
I speak of the abomination,
TAU

person person
08-29-2009, 12:45 AM
My renegade marines' to-do list now has blow up all things "Greater Good-ish".

I think Guilliman should be unplugged. Also my to-do list.

Skeletay
08-31-2009, 11:50 PM
Blood angels are way too vampirey these days. I always liked the blood angels, in fact the first model I ever painted was a blood angel, way back in second edition. Back then they were the noblest of all the space marine chapters, yada yada, and only if they survived the black rage did they succumb to the red thirst. Now they seem to be vampirey all the time. It's not right, I tell you.

I also never painted the different squad types with different coloured helmets. I get different coloured helmets for sergeants and officers, but why squad type. Do the blood angels forget what sqaud they're from and need a convenient colour coded quick reference, or what?

Drunkencorgimaster
09-01-2009, 05:42 AM
My biggest beef with 40k is that there is so much written, virtually everyone new to 40k in the past 10 years has no idea what was written before. Such as:

Imperial Guard use to be composed of Humans, Beastmen, Squats, Ratings, and Ogryn and they use to have access to Robots, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Jet Bikes, Bikes, Jump Packs, and Dreadnoughts; Roboute Gilliman was an Imperial Commander back then.

Space Marines were combat drug and cyberneticly enhanced murders in powered vacuum armour with ... Robots, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Jet Bikes, Bikes, Jump Packs, and Dreadnoughts; Ultramarines were the 13th chapter of the 3rd founding, Dark Angels wore black, and Salamanders were the original Green Marines.

Dark Eldar were members of the Harlequins. Eldar were allies of the Inquisition. Orks were green blooded reptilians, not red blooded fungus. Genesteelers were not Tyranids (but Orks may have been, as Squiggs were found with both Ork and Tyranid forces).

Oh! Disk Riders of Tzeentch where Chaos Space Marines in both Fantasy and 40k.

Of course, fluff has drifted over time. Many of the above examples have changed either do to retroactive reconstructions of the 40k universe or through the simple method of just not mentioning it ever again.

For example, Squats became their own army, and then were dropped because GW was unable to define the concept of “intellectual property” until afterward. Beastmen were dropped out of Imperial Guard as they were too close to the than concept of chaos and mutation, which flew in the face of then newer fluff about purity of the human species and purging of mutation. Robots left the fold due to reason never really define but probably related to intellectual property issues. Guard lost all of their “Marine” Gear when they gain Tanks and APC’s of their own. Everyone lost Jet Bikes other than Eldar (and Dark Eldar when they stopped being harlequins/pirates and became non-Slaanesh pain-worshipers). At some point, Roboute Gilliman became a primarch, the Ultramarines became the 13th Legion, and Dark Angels became green. Orks became fungus, ‘Steelers became ‘Nids, Squiggs became an Ork-only sub-species, and Squats/Beastmen went away forever.

And then there are the Necrons. They started out as the “undead” of the 40k universe; robots from a bygone time, activating and rising from the dust to defend the shattered ruins of their past … nope, scratch that, they are ancient aliens that covered themselves in metal so that they can be the slaves of greedy star-gods and fight chaos by killing everything, which only feeds chaos as living souls are released, etc, etc.

Tau. Where do we start with Tau? Superior technology, inferior history. All for the greater good, even if it means doing evil things. Everything has its place, and that place is slavery or death; but it’s all for the greater good!

Chaos Marines. The losers of a galactic civil war and the champions of the chaos gods. They were legion, they were strong, they were plenty, and now they are only the Black Legion as GW can’t be bothered to include rules for fielding factional armies anymore.

On technology. The Imperium of Man is a stagnant society where progress is heresy, failure is heresy, and initiative is heresy. Everything that is “new” is ancient, just seldom used and a rare find, that is until some new fluff comes along and changes the paradigm yet again. “It may be heresy, but it’s been in use for a 1,000 years and it just saved you butt. I guess that means it’s not heresy.”

Now don’t get me wrong, more recent fluff has been filling the holes left open for years, yet the more recent fluff still glosses over established fluff as if everyone knows it so therefore it can be ignored or over written when older backgrounds get in the way of dramatic license because the authors forgot.

SJ

Awesome post, who knew the Ultramarines were 3rd founding?

CaptainLoken
09-01-2009, 12:38 PM
My least favorite Fluff comes from a book. Hammer of Daemons...wow did I not like that book...

Now, I will not try to spoil anything for anyone, but the author had no concept of faith. In fact, most of the Black Library authors seems to completely ignore this little bit of humanity. Now, I'm not saying that Space Marines, or Grey Knights, believe that the Emperor is a god. In fact, most of the Fluff says that they do not.

However, faith in an ideal, as well as a spiritual being, can be one of the most powerful forces in the universe. Look at the Egyptians. They built tombs for their rulers because they BELIEVED that they were gods on Earth. Faith can literally move mountains...

Not so in Hammer of Daemons. There is a point in the book where it would have been amazingly cool to have a little scene where faith wins the day. Instead, we get insanity...

Ruined the whole book for me, as well as tarnished the legacy of the Grey Knights in my mind as well...

However, other people have enjoyed the book, so to each their own I guess...

Rahakanji
09-01-2009, 12:46 PM
I dont like the fluff of the 1st Tanith, sure the story is cool. But they kill CSM like they were little more than men. Sorry but this is sh***

Corsair117
09-01-2009, 01:04 PM
personally i dislike the fluff for the tyranids, don't get me wrong the whole ultimate-predator-space-locusts thing is fine i just dislike the fact that their like the dominoes pizza guys of evolution "30 minutes or less".

Jackmojo
09-01-2009, 02:20 PM
The Necrons, but mostly the C'Tan, I like the idea of long dead robots rising to go all terminatory on every living thing, but the star gods and war in heaven fluff is garbage.

Jack

The Lord
09-01-2009, 02:40 PM
I never really liked some of the extra "superpowers" that marines have like spitting acid, color changing skin, and being able to absorb information through eating their victim???? what? im really glad they dont go into much detail on those bits of fluff as much.

Jive Tyrant
09-01-2009, 02:44 PM
Orks growing from spores. That's what spoils them for me.

Archon
09-01-2009, 02:57 PM
Primarchs.

Because they are so cool. But there has never been models or rules. So instead there have been many sub standard conversions and bad home brew rules. We have titans, Ctan, and DPs. But we never get Primarchs, ever in any edition.

So I would rather they were gone... or GW actually give them some attention. Apoc pre-heresy edition.

I think it is very wise from GW not to make stats and minis for the Primarchs. They are better left to our imagination. Besides the are stats for Angron in an Apo Sheet. Thats a little step to much. I don´t like to see a primarch reduce to T6 or somthing.

Fluff I don´t like is Orkz. Funguid? Thats so much silly its hurts. And it is so much not-fitting. Barbarians made out of mushroom.

But speaking of the Eye of Terror in the opening post - I´m a little frightend by the way the fluff of chaos ist changing. The animostiy ist not rule-relevant and - in the case of Chaos Deamons, crippled to a tiny little rule.

AshHammer
09-01-2009, 03:04 PM
My lest favorite fluff would be anything that C.S. Goto has written. That man makes me shudder some times.

Psychosplodge
09-01-2009, 03:48 PM
My lest favorite fluff would be anything that C.S. Goto has written. That man makes me shudder some times.
Add to that james swallow and you've a losing combination...

Randl
09-01-2009, 06:41 PM
I don't care for the Necron Fluff or any book that they are in.
Silent Robot killers just don't make for a good story.