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Image
08-04-2010, 08:50 AM
Hey guys!

I'm not too sure what's wrong with me lately, perhaps a general lacking of caffeine before games or just not enough studying of the rules. Nonetheless, I'm afraid that I've been either making up rules on the spot (not intentionally, mind you :P) or just can't find the appropriate reference. Hmm... maybe I'm reading forums too frequently and being affected by that.

Anyhow, on to my question. It has to do with characteristic tests and ridden monsters. Simply, if my High Elf Prince riding a Star Dragon is hit with Pit of Shades, do they each make separate characteristic tests? Somehow, I was under the impression that you take the highest characteristic in the unit for these kind of tests meaning that both Prince and Dragon would be able to test on the Prince's Initiative 8. Similarly, if this unit is hit with Dweller's Below, then they both get to test at my Dragon's Strength of 7.

Am I correct on this? If so, can you help me identify where this rule comes from? Or, more likely, am I just insane?

UltramarineFan
08-04-2010, 11:19 AM
p10 of the BRB - 'Where a model (or a unit) has more than one value for the same charateristic, as is the case with cavalry, for example, a characteristic test is always taken against the highest of the values'

Essayons
08-04-2010, 05:39 PM
That's true for regular cavalry, but I believe that the rules for ridden monsters is different. I don't have my book in front of me, but check the section on characters on monsters and see if it's not there.

Essayons.

Essayons
08-05-2010, 07:56 AM
OK...that rule IS on page 10, but if you look at the rule for resolving spells on page 36, it says that "Many spells inflict hits or wounds on your enemies-you can find out how to resolve these on page 40 of the Shooting Phase."

So...fast forward to page 40, and you find nothing that really helps, but on 104 you find the rules for character mounts and it says "A character and his mount are treated as a single character model for all rules purposes, except as noted below." Unfortunately, there is nothing "below" that sheds any light on this. I would conclude that you follow the rule on page 10 then and use the highest value of the characteristic. The Dwellers Below says "[e]very model in the target unit must pass a Strength test or be slain," so I think you use the higher Strength value of the Dragon. Likewise, Pit of Shades has you take an Initiative test if the "model" is underneath the template, and I'd say use the Prince's Initiative value.

If there's been some clarification in a FAQ, I'm not aware of it, so if there is, this analysis may change.

Essayons.

Image
08-05-2010, 10:39 AM
After posting, I went through the same entries in that exact same order and came to the same conclusion, Essayons and Ultramarinesfan. Thanks for the guidance, guys! :D

Gooball
08-06-2010, 05:27 PM
If that is how it properly works out 's a bit stupid if you think about it O.o
Oh noes. the ground has disapeared. luckily my ELF can jump over. with a dragon tagging along.
Oh noes. if i don't push this mace away i'll DIE! luckily my dragon can use his mind powers to do this with me!
Might be the right way, but it's still stupid!

DarkAngelHopeful
08-07-2010, 12:29 AM
Here's my interpretation of the rules.

Page 105 RIDDEN MONSTERS, paragraph 3 says, "Whilst a cavalry model is treated as a single model for the purposes of hitting and wounding, a character and his ridden monster can be attacked separately. As the battle goes on, the character may find himself unhorsed (well, un Griffoned, or un-Dragoned anyway) or the monster might have its rider slain from off its back."

What that says to me is, while an obvious assumption, is that characters on monsters are not treated the same as characters on cavalry.

Page 105, SHOOTING AT RIDDEN MONSTERS, paragraph 1 says, "As a single model, the monster and its rider are considered to be a single target. It is not possible to shoot specifically at either the rider or the mount unless the shooting model has the Sniper special rule."

All that is saying is, you can't single out a character or a monstrous mount, you have to randomize your hits once you find out how many you have. It's unrelated to Pit of shades.

Page 105, SHOOTING AT RIDDEN MONSTERS, section Templates, paragraph 1 says, "If you use a weapon or spell that uses a template against a monster mount, both the riders and the mount are automatically hit if the monster's base is touched by the template (note that this includes bouncing cannonballs!)."

So, to me this means, both the character and the monster would take 1 cannonball hit each resolved separately against their specific toughness and armour/ward saves.

It continues to say, "In the case of a stone thrower, which inflicts hits at two different Strengths, only one model will be hit at the higher Strength (assuming that models' base is under the centre of the template). Randomize, as for a shooting attack, to see whether one of the riders or the mount is unlucky enough to take the high-strength hit. All other models are hit at the lower strength value."

What that says to me is that if you hit a High Elf on a Dragon with a stone thrower and the center hole of the template is not on the base of the model they both just take a hit, separately, at the lower strength value. However, if the center hole was anywhere on the base of the model, then you randomize to see if the High Elf or Dragon takes the higher strength hit, then the other part of the model takes a lower strength hit. But, they both take a hit.

So, what does all of this have to do with the Pit of Shades spell?

Well, since it's been stated that "As the battle goes on, the character may find himself unhorsed (well, un Griffoned, or un-Dragoned anyway) or the monster might have its rider slain from off its back." And we know that template weapons affect every model on the monsters base.

I submit that both the character and the monster both take a test and that they each use their own characteristics. If the rider dies, then the monster takes a monster test. If the monster dies, then the character goes about on foot.

Just my 2 cents.

Respectfully,
DarkAngelHopeful

Image
08-09-2010, 09:03 AM
I appreciate what you're saying DarkAngelHopeful and what you've proposed is what made me uncertain in the first place.

Largely, you're noting that templates hit both rider and mount as, since it's a ridden monster, they're both targets. However, as you quoted, the rider and mount are treated "as a single." Thus, by that, I defer to the characteristics test on page 10 where it states that you use the highest value of each characteristic test. Certainly, this doesn't suggest that they both can't be hit by a template, just that when they each are hit, the characteristic value used is always the highest.

To Gooball, a part of me agrees with you, but I try to imagine how it also makes sense. For instance, in the case of dweller's below, doesn't it make sense that you would use the Dragon's strength? When something is trying to pull you underground, and you have a huge dragon to protect you, why wouldn't you use it's strength to keep you up? As well, with pit of shades, the reaction time of the elf is key to keep the dragon moving so as to avoid the pit. >.<

...perhaps that doesn't make as much sense as I would hope; I'm just now starting my morning coffee.

Anyways, thank you all for the insight!

dragoon161523
08-10-2010, 07:47 PM
I appreciate what you're saying DarkAngelHopeful and what you've proposed is what made me uncertain in the first place.

Largely, you're noting that templates hit both rider and mount as, since it's a ridden monster, they're both targets. However, as you quoted, the rider and mount are treated "as a single." Thus, by that, I defer to the characteristics test on page 10 where it states that you use the highest value of each characteristic test. Certainly, this doesn't suggest that they both can't be hit by a template, just that when they each are hit, the characteristic value used is always the highest.

To Gooball, a part of me agrees with you, but I try to imagine how it also makes sense. For instance, in the case of dweller's below, doesn't it make sense that you would use the Dragon's strength? When something is trying to pull you underground, and you have a huge dragon to protect you, why wouldn't you use it's strength to keep you up? As well, with pit of shades, the reaction time of the elf is key to keep the dragon moving so as to avoid the pit. >.<

...perhaps that doesn't make as much sense as I would hope; I'm just now starting my morning coffee.

Anyways, thank you all for the insight!

Sorry guys...page 105 last paragraph

If you use a weapon or a SPELL that uses a template against a monster mount, BOTH the (riders...meaning 1 or more) and the mount are auto hit if the monsters base are hit......

This is very clear that any template spell affects both rider or riders and mount regardless of anything under the character rules as once he climbs on that dragon hes no longer a character he is a character on a monster.

FYI pg 104 last sentence above Bold calvary headline. A character and his mount are treated as a single character model for all purposes,EXCEPT as noted below....although the ruling is on pg 105 regarding your question it is still under this sections ruling....sorry guys templates ROYALLY SUCK against characters on monsters-My Lizzys are so screwed :(

Essayons
08-12-2010, 03:25 AM
Well Dragoon, you've convinced me as far as Pit of Shades goes, but The Dwellers Below doesn't use a template. In looking at this more, considering that rider(s) and monster are separate for purposes of wounds from shooting and close combat, I would test for each of them on their respective Strength. This would jive with the "they can be unhorsed" statement on page 105.

Yeah, yeah, I've done a 180, but hey...one can change one's mind. ;)

Essayons.

DarkAngelHopeful
08-12-2010, 07:25 AM
Well Dragoon, you've convinced me as far as Pit of Shades goes, but The Dwellers Below doesn't use a template. In looking at this more, considering that rider(s) and monster are separate for purposes of wounds from shooting and close combat, I would test for each of them on their respective Strength. This would jive with the "they can be unhorsed" statement on page 105.

Yeah, yeah, I've done a 180, but hey...one can change one's mind. ;)

Essayons.

Essayons, I think you've got it right. The way I interpret it, is that if you are shooting at a ridden monster, then per the shooting rules you randomize to see where the shots go. If you use a template, then you do as has been discussed before. And with direct damage spells, such as The Dwellers Below, it says every model in the unit. So, I would interpret as you do, that both the rider and the monster take a test on their own characteristic. You just have to hope they both pass.

dragoon161523
08-12-2010, 06:10 PM
Well Dragoon, you've convinced me as far as Pit of Shades goes, but The Dwellers Below doesn't use a template. In looking at this more, considering that rider(s) and monster are separate for purposes of wounds from shooting and close combat, I would test for each of them on their respective Strength. This would jive with the "they can be unhorsed" statement on page 105.

Yeah, yeah, I've done a 180, but hey...one can change one's mind. ;)

Essayons.

Sorry again....but hey in a good way :)

Look closely at dwellers below....it does not use a template, nor is it a shooting attack therefore it does not follow the rule exceptions on pg 105, the spell specifically states it affects EVERY model in the unit.
Yes the rider and the monster are considered a unit but pg 104 states they are treated as a SINGLE MODEL.
Therefore they will test at the highest strength available for the now single model.

DarkAngelHopeful
08-12-2010, 11:53 PM
This thread keeps blowing my mind and changing my view on this lol. :)

Okay, so let's do a summary.

1. If being shot at, randomize per the shooting rules.

2. If it's a template, both rider and monster are hit and affected.

3. If it's Dwellers below, then they are treated as a single model and you use the highest Strength available.

Sound right?

I'm glad we all cleared this up lol. :D

Edit: If this is correct, then the rider and the monster both die if they are hit with The Dwellers Below and they fail the test since they are treated as one model.

dragoon161523
08-13-2010, 05:24 PM
This thread keeps blowing my mind and changing my view on this lol. :)

Okay, so let's do a summary.

1. If being shot at, randomize per the shooting rules.

2. If it's a template, both rider and monster are hit and affected.

3. If it's Dwellers below, then they are treated as a single model and you use the highest Strength available.

Sound right?

I'm glad we all cleared this up lol. :D

Edit: If this is correct, then the rider and the monster both die if they are hit with The Dwellers Below and they fail the test since they are treated as one model.

Yes.....hey you gotta take the good with the bad-lol. Suks for a old blood riding a carnosaur because technically he passes on anything but a 6 just like the carnosaur, so I would love for them to be seperate in my case :(