C:SM 1850 Armored Spearhead - Redesigning

[RIGHT-Titan]

Well.. I've been trying to redesign a list I was unhappy with.

I struggled to find my play style with Marines and I'm thinking I can fix it with a minimum of changes.

My goal is to push to the middle and claim the middle ground and any objectives there. This will require speed to get there and force to push anyone who is there off.

I figure if I can control the flow in the middle of the battlefield then I can subsequently push forward to the enemy's backfield.

Here's a list of stuff I took out:

Ironclad with drop pod
Dreadnought with drop pod
5 man sometimes 10 man sternguard squad with rhino and combi-meltas.
Cato Sicarius

Stuff I added:

Librarian - Epistolary.
5 Assault Terminators
a Land Raider Crusader - subject to change
3 Land Speeder Tornados

--------------------------

So I have a new dilemma. I took off the Librarian TDA, and I changed the Land Raider Crusader to a Redeemer... but now I actually have 10 points left over!

I thought about dropping the lascannon from one squad, which leaves me with 20 points, and I thought about dropping the Extra armor from the Redeemer which leaves me with 35 points, I could drop a melta to get the TDA on the Libby back but I could just keep him in his land raider too.. I also thought about adding a chaplain as a second HQ to reroll hits on the charge with the termies...

Too many choices!

Alternatively I don't know what to do with 10 to 35 points depending on what I keep or drop.

Here's the new list:

[HQ]

Librarian; w/ Epistolary

[TROOPS]

10x Tactical Squad; Meltagun, Lascannon
Sergeant; Chainsword
Rhino

10x Tactical Squad; Meltagun, Missile Launcher
Sergeant; Chainsword
Rhino

10x Tactical Squad; Meltagun, Missile Launcher
Sergeant; Chainsword
Rhino

[ELITES]

5x Assault Terminators; 3x TH/SS, 2x TL Lightning Claws
Land Raider Redeemer; Extra Armor, Multi-Melta

[HEAVY SUPPORT]

Vindicator; Siege Shield

Vindicator; Siege Shield

Vindicator; Siege Shield

[FAST ATTACK]

Land Speeder Tornado; Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder Tornado; Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder Tornado; Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer

Total: 1840


Thanks for the help, comments, critiques, etc..

[Tynskel]

I am always a fan of weapons on the Sgts in Tactical Squads. It sucks when a Carnifex (or any other big thing) collides with your Tactical Squad, and there's not much you can do. Granted, you have Combat Tactics, and you can just withdraw... but I have seen many a marine squad chased off the board that way.

Also, I would NOT take Extra Armor off the Redeemer. Eventhough Stunned is rare, that's the center piece of your army, and it is going to take lots of firepower.

I would change one Land Speeder to double Hv Bolters. Then switch the other two Land Speeders to Double Multi-Meltas.


What powers are you taking for the Libby?

[SombreBrotherhood]

Have you considered 3x Typhoons for ranged anti-tank? A single lascannon and two missile launchers are your sole >24" anti-tank (and anti-MC) options. I think you could get more flexibility that way and more firepower to cover your push on the center.

[RIGHT-Titan]

See I'm not really sure how much a power weapon or even fist would help against a carni or any other equally scary CC unit.

I might be able to deal a wound or so.. but ultimately he's still gonna rip through them. Not to mention they will be in a metal box (the rhino) most of the time.. Not that the CC unit can't smash a rhino, just that it does limit the occasions the sergeant will have to use the weapon/fist.

I'll probably keep the EA on the redeemer. The thing has to keep moving forward...

As for powers on my Libby, I'm thinking Null Zone and... well.. that's a good question.

Originally I was gonna have Avenger as my second ability, but without TDA there is a reasonable chance he'll die a horrible horrible death.

As for the Land Speeder Typhoons, yeah, getting all those missile shots would be nice but it requires another 20 points PER speeder.. 90 pts per model.. which is not something my list will fit right now I don't think...

Each Tornado is costing me 70 points, and I think I may have to trust them to zip up and blast something with their multi-meltas.

[Tynskel]

if u have been putting wounds on monsterous creatures, the powerfist is very good at finishing the job.

[RIGHT-Titan]

Sorta comes down to finding the points again though..

with 10 points I'm not getting a fist without removing something else I'd probably rather have..

Any thoughts on the Libby, powers it has or what to do with him once the raider hits its target?

[Tynskel]

what r u doing with him?

[RIGHT-Titan]

what r u doing with him?


That's the big question.

Like I said before I'm giving him nullzone and probably avenger and sticking him in the land raider with the Assault Terminators.. That's kinda why I wanted to give him his Terminator Armor back...

I could keep him in the Land Raider even after they have left and use nullzone from within the protective hide of the land raider... but as it has no firepoints then he never gets to use avenger and spending 50 points on epistolary is a huge waste.

[Sir Biscuit]

First off, why isn't Tynskel using full words? IT'S FREAKIN ME OUT.

Second, I've always thought that nullzone/gate is about the best combo you can have when your terminators are with a libby. Gate ensures that you aren't caught out of position when you dismount (or are forced to.) I don't think assault termies really need a more big attack power, it's not like you're going to fail to kill whatever you hit.

However, if you don't like gate than I highly reccomend Vortex over Avenger (assuming he's in terminator armor). Vortex can bust open transports so that your termies can get at what's inside, which is more valuable that killing 3+ guys before you assault.

[RIGHT-Titan]

Yeah I do quite like that combo as well.. I always worried about losing a precious precious terminator using Gate, but it's not that likely I suppose...

With Vortex just have to pray that you don't fail psychic test lol... but that's sorta the deal with all the psychic powers ;)

Now is it worth it to get him back into terminator armor? I could do it, but I'd be taking off the quite a lot to do it... My guess is that it's not worth going to those extremes to scrounge 30 points. If I took off epistolary it'd be easy as pie, but then I can't use Vortex/Gate and Nullzone in the same turn.

I'm not sure which is more valuable.

edit: What I just noticed too is that Vortex is a heavy attack. Now that means that if I've moved he won't be using it? It would seem that Gate would probably be the preferred choice then. By the same token, if they gate, they can't assault so they won't be using nullzone that turn either.

It would seem then that Epistolary is less than optimal.

[Sir Biscuit]

Remember, if he's in terminator armor, he gains the relentless special rule, so vortex is effectively assault 1. Also, if you put him in the terminator armor, scrounge up the extra ten points and give him a storm shield. 140 points for a terminator librarian with SS and two powers is a steal of an HQ.

Upgrading to epistolary is a mistake, in my opinion. It's VERY expensive and you'll rarely cast both powers in the same turn. Honestly, just be careful. Don't gate right next to huge melee threats that you need null zone to beat. (On second thought, never deep strike ever into that position, regardless of whether or not you have it up.)

[RIGHT-Titan]

Yeah you can't assault out of a gate anyways I don't think... It uses the deep strike rules and you can't assault the turn you deep strike...

Part of my desire to keep epistolary I think is if he's in Terminator Armor then he gets a better chance of fighting it out in combat, which makes use of his force weapon. The way wound allocation works it seems like it could be nice to roll and instagib a few things.

Now it sounds good to me, but anything immune to instant death can't be force weaponed to death... There are a lot of characters that have immunity, how practical is it to kill something that way?

The other thing is nullzone still benefits the shooting in my army.

If I force models that would otherwise be getting invuln. saves to re roll those against say vindicator shooting, it could be worthwhile to gate then pop nullzone.

[Tynskel]

you need strength to take advantage of the force weapon. Most of the things you'll want to Instant Death are Toughness 6.