PDA

View Full Version : 2k SM Tourney List



Chexmix282
08-17-2010, 02:26 AM
Here's the final draft of a list i've been building and changing for a while now.

It's your basic dual-rock list, but what sets this one apart from the others is the good amount of fire support, redundancy, and the target priority issues it causes for opponents. I wanted the Librarian to have Terminator Armor and a Storm Shield in case he ever feels like leaving his Land Raider but i couldn't find the points :(

HQ
Librarian 100
-Null Zone, Avenger

Elites
Dreadnought 125
-2 Twin-linked Autocannons

Dreadnought 125
-2 Twin-linked Autocannons

10 Assault Terminators 400
-Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield
Land Raider Redeemer 265
-Multi-Melta, Extra Armor

Troops
Tactical Squad 205
-Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino

Tactical Squad 205
-Flamer, Missile Launcher, Rhino

Fast Attack
Land Speeder 70
-Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder 70
-Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support
Land Raider Redeemer 265
-Multi-Melta, Extra Armor

Predator 85
-Heavy Bolters

Predator 85
-Heavy Bolters

2000

Any constructive criticism?

blackarmchair
08-17-2010, 03:20 AM
Hrrrrm it looks pretty good to me.

Only glaring issue I see is that you're going to have some issue dealing with 2+ saves.

You have enough shots for horde, those Redeemers will cook MEQs easily and you've certainly got enough melta to handle tanks.

My suggestion is to work in a Vindicator. That would keep up your theme of fire-support that creates target priority issues (as you would then be fielding 3x vehicles people REALLY want dead). It kills just about anything and still isn't half-baked at handling horde either!

I'd actually consider dropping a pread and some Extra Armour that'll give you enough for a bare bones vindicator.

Image
08-17-2010, 09:17 AM
It's definitely solid, but I think you're going to have issues in objective grabbing. Certainly, you're offering some really tough choices for your opponent's shooting, but depending on the mission, you might simply be outmaneuvered.

Your dreadnoughts come in nicely at that point, however, with the addition of your predators. Hmm. I think it's definitely a strong list and I want to point out the problems with it, but I think you have most of your bases covered.

Outside of few troops, I really like this list. :)

Chexmix282
08-17-2010, 01:52 PM
I don't have the Heavy Support slots for a Vindicator, unfortunately. And i'm not too keen at lobbing S10/AP2 shells past my front lines where they can scatter into my Terminators :P

Speaking of Terminators, they are my answer to 2+ saves, especially when combined with Null Zone. I like playing the "who's CC unit is better" game, because I'll usually win :D

The low scoring units is a weakness, to be sure, but if i keep them in reserve or hide them behind the Raiders i should be fine.

blackarmchair
08-17-2010, 02:06 PM
Yeah Terminators are a good answer to other 2+'s mine just always seem to die in the effort (sort of like trading queens in chess), but I suppose you DO have 2 squads (wish my TH/SS termies weren't so pricey).

I don't think your troops are AS big of an issue as it can be in many lists simply due to the fact that the rest of the army is so killy. Your opponent is sort of forced to either focus on your offensive elements or be killed by them.

I have a similar thing going on with my Chaos. I only ever have 2-3 squads of troops but they're almost never touched, there are simply too many other things. With this list people will see 2 redeemers nasty turbo-boosting multi-meltas and a couple other pieces of impressive armour on the field (I think a vindicator would help at this too) and I don't think a couple of tac squads are exactly on top of the hit list.

Even in an objective game where a canny player may seek to eliminate all the troops they are easily concealed by any of the other heavily armoured pieces.

Son_of_Osiris
08-20-2010, 10:08 AM
I really like this list! My only suggestion is to replace the redeemer land raiders with the regular pattern landraiders. Those twin lascannons would really help this army out. Though the redeemers are awesome, the additional ranged support would be just as awesome. just a suggestion

blackarmchair
08-20-2010, 03:50 PM
Boo to Godhammer!

Godhammers are like a tease. Their HB and LCs say stop but their Assault Ramp says go go.

They can't really be fully employed, you either sit still and shoot to full potential or you move and waste lots of guns.

A Crusader is a valid choice but the God hammer is inappropriate outside a grey knights army.

Sir Biscuit
08-20-2010, 05:27 PM
Hey I found the points to give him storm shield: drop a terminator.

Trust me, it's worth it. Otherwise you can bet the librarian will be the first thing splatted whenever you hit CC.

Also, get a ******* dozer blade on that Land Raider. LRs LOVE to drive through terrain and they WILL get immobilized. It's 5 points, remove the chance.

Chexmix282
08-21-2010, 01:35 AM
Hey I found the points to give him storm shield: drop a terminator.

And have 9 non-combat squad-able Terminators that can't fit into a Land Raider walk across the field?

That doesnt really work for me :/

Where would i get the 5 points for dozer blades? I can't find an upgrade that i can drop without reducing the effectiveness or duality of any of my units.

blackarmchair
08-21-2010, 02:08 AM
If it were me I'd drop the extra armour.

I know on paper it looks like a good idea to protect a 250pt investment with all the bells and whistles but I find that 9 times out of 10 the thing that actually pens my land raider is a melta and with the +1 on the damage chart I find my raider is rarely shaken (it's usually worse actually).

I know it's a personal taste issue but I figure that's 30pts that can easily get you at least the dozer blades ditch another 10pts and there's your SS. Personally I don't think it's worth dropping much else to get the Termie Armour/SS so I'd either keep the EA or drop it for Dozer Blades and 20pts worth of something else.

Duke
08-21-2010, 09:20 AM
I actually Ike extra armor... The whole purpose of the land raider is to deliver that Killy cargo. The extra armor let's it do that. I lover stun land raiders to ineffectual-ness

Duke

BlindGunn
08-23-2010, 10:50 AM
Boo to Godhammer!

Godhammers are like a tease. Their HB and LCs say stop but their Assault Ramp says go go.

They can't really be fully employed, you either sit still and shoot to full potential or you move and waste lots of guns.

A Crusader is a valid choice but the God hammer is inappropriate outside a grey knights army.

As a Wolf Player, with limited access to long-ranged heavy Weapons Options. A Standard Raider with LasCannons is hugely appealing to me if I'm going to spend the points on Raiders.

If I have armoured targets: move 6", fire one Las cannon normally, fire the 2nd using Machine Spirit. Two Armoured targets gone (I hope). Repeat often!

No Targets or I REALLY want to dump off the riders, Full speed plus Machine Spirit a weapon with appropriate target (Las for Vehicles, HBolter for Infantry).

If I'm worried about loosing the raider (no matter what type of raider), I'm going to go full speed to hide somewhere and pop smoke. Doesn't matter what I have, I won't be able to fire.

The large appeal to the other two Raiders is their Anti-Infantry capability. I have lots of other things for dealing with Infantry... ;)

Chexmix282
08-23-2010, 06:49 PM
As a Wolf Player, with limited access to long-ranged heavy Weapons Options...

Wait... did you just say that Space Wolves have limited long-range firepower? SW's firepower far surpasses C:SM's... Long Fangs are cheaper and can pack more weapons than Devastators. SW get Razorbacks for 15 points cheaper than C:SM, including the troops choice.

Aside from that, I'm just not sold on the Godhammer Land Raider. TL Lascannons are fun, but not really worthwhile on a transport that will be moving 12" every turn until the unit inside disembarks.

BlindGunn
08-24-2010, 09:40 AM
Wait... did you just say that Space Wolves have limited long-range firepower? SW's firepower far surpasses C:SM's... Long Fangs are cheaper and can pack more weapons than Devastators. SW get Razorbacks for 15 points cheaper than C:SM, including the troops choice.
<Chuckle> I understand what you're saying. I was comparing myself to other marine players. And we're not talking about points cost - we're talking availability.

Yes, I can get Long Fangs by the bucket - but they're a heavy choice. 3 Squads max. If I want tanks - I can't take a lot of Fangs. In fact, unless I'm taking Wolf Guard, I have to use those Heavy Slots for those Land Raisers we were talking about. Regular marines can get a heavy weapon in every squad PLUS their Heavy choices.

(Probably why Razor Spam is so popular with Wolves - we want the extra heavy weapons and Heavy Slots for other toys!)

Problem with Razor Spam is it limits your squad sizes. While Grey Hunters could operate in a small 6-man squad effectively, it's the devastation of facing a unit of 10 that makes them worthwhile! And Blood Claws? If you don't have 10 members in the squad, leave them at home.



Aside from that, I'm just not sold on the Godhammer Land Raider. TL Lascannons are fun, but not really worthwhile on a transport that will be moving 12" every turn until the unit inside disembarks.
Again - depends on your targets of choice.

I have lots to deal with Infantry (Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, usually a Speeder or two with Assault Cannon and Bolter or a Flamer). Usually I want to be in assault with infantry with my infantry to protect them from being shot!

My only core heavy anti-tank weapons are really Meltas (too short a range on foot - have to get there!) and Power Fists (even closer!). My opponent is going to go for the Transports to make them walk and that means it'll take a while before I can count on being in range - if they survive the attempt.

Multi-melta on a speeder is great, but again - you have to get it very close to get the double-dice penetration. With Armour 10 - not likely very often. Usually ends up as a free Kill Point.

Vindicator shot scatters. Great for shooting infantry and clearing buildings, but against tanks - you have to hope it doesn't scatter too far. Also, the closer your opponent is to your troops, the less useful the Vindicator becomes for fear of scattering onto your own troops. (I usually take one anyway - it's too good supporting the attack, even if I don't go tank-hunting with it. There's one Heavy slot gone.)

Predator Annihilator is good for Anti-Tank, but expensive - more so than a Vindicator when you add the Lascannon sponsons. It becomes a stationary pill box and an easy target itself.

So usually, I'll take Long Fangs as the Long-Range support. For Long Fangs, Missiles are good for lighter vehicles but for reliable Armour 13 & 14 killers, you really need Lascannon. Those get expensive, fast. I have one squad with 3-4 "Rocket Launchers" and 1 LasCannon. At the most, I can have 2 squads if I also take the Vindicator.

So, when I'm getting a Land Raider, it has to replace my Long Fangs as my long-range anti-vehicle weapon. The Raider can also potentially kill 2 seperate targets (same as the Long Fangs), though usually will only get a shot off at one.

Once I deposit the troops, I'm still move and fire - hunting hiding vehicles. Something that I can't do with the Long Fangs.

So, that's my logic. For me it seems to work reasonably well. I don't claim it works for everyone. I just want people to consider the Godhammer Raider as a viable, useful option rather than just writing it off.

If I take 2 Raiders, one of them is usually the Crusaider for the extra cargo capacity, but I almost always will take the GodHammer version if I take a single Raider.

blackarmchair
08-24-2010, 01:33 PM
TBH, I play wolves myself and I've never had issue with armour. I run my LFs with 5x ML plus an attached wolf guard with CML all coming in around 200pts. Take two packs like this and you can pretty much blast away at anything short of a land raider with impugnity.

And for that one odd AV14 vehicle most space marine armies have there are mela/multi-meltas in every squad and it really ain't hard to get to when it's charging toward you.

If you're worried about using heavy slots take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport for your wolfguard (seriously what else would you really put in it?) then you still have three heavy slots.

BlindGunn
08-25-2010, 04:40 PM
We seem to have gotten off topic here, but why not! ;)


TBH, I play wolves myself and I've never had issue with armour. I run my LFs with 5x ML plus an attached wolf guard with CML all coming in around 200pts. Take two packs like this and you can pretty much blast away at anything short of a land raider with impugnity.

And for that one odd AV14 vehicle most space marine armies have there are mela/multi-meltas in every squad and it really ain't hard to get to when it's charging toward you.

If you're worried about using heavy slots take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport for your wolfguard (seriously what else would you really put in it?) then you still have three heavy slots.
First - not sure how to reply without sometimes sounding condensending or argumentative - it's not my intent. I'm just not sure how to word it better. I've tried adding some humour (poor as it may be) to lighten it up. So if it sounds sarcastic - I'm trying to find a serious way to say it and failing! Please be patient with me! English is my first and only language but I was never very good at it!

We marines (including Space Wolves) have some excellent tanks and want to take them from time to time as well! I think we've discussed the tanks (including the Raider) already. I don't want to repeat previous entries too much. Suffice it to say - If I don't take Wolf Guard and I want to take any other tanks or Raiders, that's less Long Fangs. Some people are pushing me already saying 2 Vindicators is the way to go. That would mean only one squad of Long Fangs to do "LO-o-oNG range shooting" (over 24"). None if I want a 2nd Raider.

As to Armour 14 vehicles, you've mentioned Meltas with the Grey Hunters, but I'm not a fan.

My rational reasons (to me) for not taking Meltas or not counting on them in the GH squads:
- I don't think they have sufficient range to deal with tanks all the time and as quickly as I need them; my Grey Hunters become vulnerable trying to sneak/run/charge into position. it's one thing to Deep strike a pod beside a tank and blast it in turn 1. Another thing to expect him to survive to repeat it for two more turns unopposed. Marching across an open table is even less likely.
- I want my GH taking out my opponents infantry. If I shoot at tanks, I can't charge into infantry. Even with 2 Meltas, that's 8 GH sitting around, doing nothing for the shooting phase.
- I include a melta occassionally as an "Uh-Oh! No one to charge at this turn except the Deadnaught/Raider/Some Other Nasty Thing" weapon. Usually for being Tank Shocked or a desperation weapon shot. Usually in that case, I end up charging in and it's my sheer number of attacks, my Power Fist or Krak Grenades that deal with it in the Assault phase, not the Melta in the Shooting phase. Part of that is the next paragraph...

My real reason for not trusting Meltas is more hysterical reasoning - it's a single shot weapon and I always miss with single-shot weapons! :( (It's true! People are amazed at how badly I fall outside the normal range of statistics. One friend has offered to let me re-roll any weapon that's a single-shot/turn weapon because he knows I'll probably still MISS!) My main anti-armour weapon for Grey Hunters is to take a couple of Plasma Rifles and go for the flanks and rear. I shoot farther, get more shots and hit at least once! It's Psychological, I know! But that's what it "seems" like.

So - as a result, I only have Meltas in a couple of squads. Sadly, they don't do as much for me as everyone else advertises. I'm using them less and less and moving over to Flamers and Plasma.

Using Land Raiders as dedicated Transports for Wolf Guard is an excellent idea - if you take them! ;)

I usually fight 1500 points range so I usually go for Quantity rather than Quality (remember - that dice rolling issue - More Shots or Attacks are better - I get to roll more Dice and have a better chance of killing SOMETHING!).

Wolf Guard tend to be a bit too expensive as a unit at 1500 points for my tastes - more likely to take them as Pack Leaders (if at all). I usually take 3-4 Core in drop pods, Rhinos and Razors, a couple of heros and barely have the points for more than a squad of Long Fangs and one more choice (lately it's been a Vindicator but sometimes a Raider as a transport for Blood Claws). This is my "Preferred Core Army". Additional points usually go towards more units & toys to support the Core, rather than doing drastic changes to it.

(I've posted a list in here some time ago - you should be able to find it if you're curious. I'll try and find it after I post this. It's not intended as a "super Tournament List", though I'm crazy enough to use it in one.) Found it! (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=8551)

I know most people write them off, but my Blood Claws, lead by a Wolf Priest, have done excellent work for me in the past. I don't mind putting them into a Raider as they will usually get into assault that way. And they're considerably cheaper than Wolf Guard! ;)

2000 points, I would definitely try to take Wolf Guard - preferably in a Raider. If I don't have need for more than 5 Terminators or 10 regular armoured troops - it'll usually be in a Godhammer version. As I said, if I take 2 Raiders, chances are the second will be a Crusader.