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Kaar
08-16-2009, 02:53 PM
Hey fellow BolS'ers!

So a little thing to throw out here for everyone - If you take Devastator Teams in your armies, how do you run them and why? Does your loadout change depending on the points of the games? And if you don't take them, why not, and what do you use instead?

I myself usually run just a five-man team, with 3 ML's and a PC in my 1850 list. I know they're fragile without the ablative wounds of extra troopers, but I just can't justify spending extra points on boltguns that will likely only get one or two shots off, ever. I'm a big fan of the versatility of the missiles, too. Being able to pick between a hard shot or a blast is always great, and a PC? Well they're just fun, melty goodness.

VinceBlack
08-16-2009, 03:35 PM
I generally like to run a 10 man squad with 2 missile launchers and 2 lascannons combat teamed. I run one of each heavy weapon in each squad and have a good armor defense. I find that for the points the ML/LC combo works better and gives greater versatility while saving a grip of points. I sometimes take 2 tac squads and leave another 2 lasconnons behind giving my army a solid fire base, this is a gamble because having 2 5 man forward tactical squads isn't always enough punch.

CrusherJoe
08-17-2009, 03:17 AM
I haven't run a proper dev squad in a while, but when I did, I tried several combos with mixed results.

First one was 2 PC/2HB. This combo was hell on hordes when they were packed in right (large ork squad flambe, anyone?).

Another one was a simple 2 LC/5 man squad. Anti-tank, obviously, and it was pretty good at it...but overall I never felt like it was a strong performer.

Last combo that actually worked pretty well most of the time was a 4 ML squad. Against light/medium armor it worked wonders, you were pretty much guaranteed at least one or two hits. Against hordes firing frags it was...decent, usually.

Jonas88
08-17-2009, 03:40 AM
hey guys
I find it works when i take 1 LC, 2 HB, and either a PC or ML depending on the army that's my standard Heavy choice no matter the points limit

Dingareth
08-17-2009, 05:28 AM
I find that they look really nice sitting on a display shelf... And that's about all.

A Predator or Vindicator is going to be a better buy every time. Mobile firepower is nice, and Dawn of War really, really killed static Heavy Support choices.

Chumbalaya
08-17-2009, 07:23 AM
I find that they look really nice sitting on a display shelf... And that's about all.

A Predator or Vindicator is going to be a better buy every time. Mobile firepower is nice, and Dawn of War really, really killed static Heavy Support choices.

This

exoduster18
08-17-2009, 08:50 AM
I have mine currently kitted out with one LC, one HB, one ML, and one PC.

While I doubt that this is effective, I am considering 2HBs, and 2 LCs, or 2 HBs, and 2 MLs.

I am not a big fan of plasma but it does work. Since most of my opponents are either Orks, Tyranids, or IG, I want that massed firepower. I also run three tac squads, but they are kitted out with the meltas and the multi-meltas.

I also run a unit of Sternguard with nothing but Storm Bolters but I am looking to make one, possibly two into HBs.....

Also, please note, while mech is the current king, none of my opponents are mechanized. They are all foot sloggers. LOL. So, no real reason to take anti-tank other than for the occasional heavily armed behemoth.

BuFFo
08-17-2009, 09:04 AM
I find that they look really nice sitting on a display shelf... And that's about all.

A Predator or Vindicator is going to be a better buy every time. Mobile firepower is nice, and Dawn of War really, really killed static Heavy Support choices.

What? Wait a second....

I take Havocs with quadruple Lascannons. I have also taken Predators as well.

In the first turn of Dawn of War, both units have to move to get into position, and that means move 12" with the tank and fire nothing, or move 6"+d6" with the Havocs and fire nothing. At best, you can move 6" with the tank, and fire one Lascannon, and in Dawn of War, you are most likely not going ot see anything because of night fighting.

So I fail to see how losing ONE lascannon shot in a turn with night fighting breaks Havoks into non usability? I always just run my Havoks into terrain turn 1 anyway, so by turn two, I got my four lascannons firing away as normal.

I respect your opinion, but a vehicle is not better every time. Personally, I avoid the Predator because that thing never moves the entire game anyway.

The Plastic Surgeon
08-17-2009, 10:05 AM
4 ML's are cheap and cheerful as are 4 HB's or 4 LC's or 4 PC's!

I like to take pure one weapon Devs for the cool factor :D

VinceBlack
08-17-2009, 10:09 AM
What? Wait a second....

I take Havocs with quadruple Lascannons. I have also taken Predators as well.

In the first turn of Dawn of War, both units have to move to get into position, and that means move 12" with the tank and fire nothing, or move 6"+d6" with the Havocs and fire nothing. At best, you can move 6" with the tank, and fire one Lascannon, and in Dawn of War, you are most likely not going ot see anything because of night fighting.

So I fail to see how losing ONE lascannon shot in a turn with night fighting breaks Havoks into non usability? I always just run my Havoks into terrain turn 1 anyway, so by turn two, I got my four lascannons firing away as normal.

I respect your opinion, but a vehicle is not better every time. Personally, I avoid the Predator because that thing never moves the entire game anyway.

I’m going have to agree with Buffo here. In fact I have found my dev squads are generally for more effective than a predator. Even a 5 man squad can be hard to crack, put them in cover (blessed cover even better with 3+ cover saves) I have played so many games where I relied on a las'd out predator only to see that thing smoking before it has a chance to do any damage.

BuFFo
08-17-2009, 10:38 AM
Yeah, I am not saying vehicles like Predators are worthless, but heavy support choices on foot are wonderful options that many players automatically pass up without giving them more than a few games with.

VinceBlack
08-17-2009, 11:59 AM
Didn't mean to imply that at all, Pred's are still valuable and useful I have personally had more luck banking on the durability and versatility of combat teamed Dev's for my heavy fire support and Pred's for their mobility. I don't trust the bulk of my anti-armor being armor, marines are tough and they have the survivability that I desire.

chambers
08-17-2009, 02:54 PM
I personally run one devastator unit w/ 4 ml (most of the time in combat squads). I use the devs to help anchor my back lines and beef up my ant-transport abilities.

And yes I do loose mobility but what I gain in return is a more resilient unit that can take on hoard and light tank with equal ease.

Chumbalaya
08-17-2009, 03:12 PM
What? Wait a second....

I take Havocs with quadruple Lascannons. I have also taken Predators as well.

In the first turn of Dawn of War, both units have to move to get into position, and that means move 12" with the tank and fire nothing, or move 6"+d6" with the Havocs and fire nothing. At best, you can move 6" with the tank, and fire one Lascannon, and in Dawn of War, you are most likely not going ot see anything because of night fighting.

So I fail to see how losing ONE lascannon shot in a turn with night fighting breaks Havoks into non usability? I always just run my Havoks into terrain turn 1 anyway, so by turn two, I got my four lascannons firing away as normal.

I respect your opinion, but a vehicle is not better every time. Personally, I avoid the Predator because that thing never moves the entire game anyway.

First off, lol lascannons.

Static fire support squads lose out in 5th because vehicles are more mobile, harder to destroy, and harder to avoid. You stick your Devastators/Havocs somewhere, so your opponent knows they won't go anywhere and plans accordingly. Even then, 4 lascannons aren't going to be knocking out Land Raiders any time soon. Vehicles can move, which is reason enough to take them. Foot squads can get Lashed, PBS'd, and run off the board, vehicles cannot. Foot squads cost 3 times what vehicles cost for no difference in firepower. With cover the way it is, it's impossible for foot squads to really dig an entrenched enemy out. Enter vehicles with mobility to bring nasty stuff like flamers and assault troops in.

I respect your opinion, but play against a couple competent mech armies and let me know how it turns out. I wish I could use Devastators too (I ran 2 squads back in 4th), but they aren't worth it any more.

Kaar
08-17-2009, 06:07 PM
Hmm, very interesting arguments from everyone all around.

To Chum's point: I would have to debate the fact that vehicles are harder to kill. While yes, they're more resilient to fire, namely small arms, the modern 5th edition army is usually so kitted out to fight mechanized lists that I've personally found a lot of success going 'against the grain' as it were, and having a footslogging HS choice. Hey, that's great you've got lots of meltas, but each of those only pops one of my men a shot, and I still have my cover... Yes, vehicles can get cover saves too, but if they fail, they could be blown sky high, where at worst, a Dev/Havok team loses one man.

Ultimately, any heavy weapons are very much up to the whims of the dice, I've found. In one game, I had three glancing hits (Immobile, weapon, weapon!) against an LRR in one round of shooting from my Dev's ML's, in another, they couldn't hit the broad side of a Carnifex. I just like to maximize my chances with having more launchers on the field.

Chumbalaya
08-17-2009, 09:41 PM
Any army that tailors purely against mech is a poor army. It's not enough to kill vehicles, some armies don't even have them, so a strong balanced list will have infantry killers too.

Problem with static pillbox troops is they cost so freakin' much, have 0 mobility, and suffer from all the problems infantry do (morale, assault, Lash, etc).

Vince
08-17-2009, 10:38 PM
Lascannons are not a good anti tank choice with the way the damage chart/cover work in 5th edition. They cost to much and the chance to kill something is to low especially when compared to a melta weapon. You have a better chance at cracking a land raider with a vindicator shot then you do 4 lascannons. I would say if your 2 heavy support choices are a las predator or a 4 lascannon 10 man dev squad leave both choices at home.

Also devastators are at a disadvantage in dawn of war because not only can they not fire the first turn they come in, but at most they can move 6+d6 and are most likely not going to be in a great spot with fire lanes and cover from one turn of moving.

The one use I could see for devastators is if you have a almost pure assault army and you need something to crack rhinos or chims so you can assault the contents. Then I could see running like 7 or 8 of them with 4 Missile Launchers or Autocannons purely for killing transports/dreads/skimmers.

Chumbalaya
08-18-2009, 07:03 AM
And even then, Preds, Typhoons and TLAC Dreads would be cheaper and better at it ;)

Marcus Iago Geruasius
08-18-2009, 07:36 AM
I take two squads:
1st squad - Sgt w/storm bolter; 4LCs
2nd squad - Sgt w/storm bolter; 4ML

The LCs can crack into almost anything and with 48"s of range the can lays some hvy fire on the board. The MLs are very versatile allowing you to pu 4 blasts on a densely packed horde, or giving you 4 more STR 8 shots at a vehicle up to 48"s away.

The hard part is keeping them from harm, giving them a cover save and good LOS.

vman
08-18-2009, 08:08 AM
I love devastor squads because they die easy

EmperorEternalXIX
08-20-2009, 07:09 PM
Devastators would be useful if they were cheaper. As they are now...totally useless.

4 lascannons is like 200+ points min-maxed with five guys. One round of light shooting can eat 100 points even in reinforced cover.WAYYYYY too much of a liability for me.

BuFFo
08-20-2009, 07:55 PM
First off, lol lascannons.

I guess?


Static fire support squads lose out in 5th because vehicles are more mobile

Last time I checked vehicles are LESS mobile due to the weapon rules and speeds of non skimmer fast vehicles.


harder to destroy

Agreed, but what does this have to do with a weapon that can fire basically anywhere on the board if deployed correctly?



and harder to avoid

I really don't think you are playing 5th edition.... Easier to avoid? You mean with TLOS how I can hide vehicles ANYWHERE on the board now? In 4th, you could hide behind terrain, but now you can't.


You stick your Devastators/Havocs somewhere, so your opponent knows they won't go anywhere and plans accordingly.

Agreed. Don't forget that your opponent will also AVOID driving anywhere near the unit if possible unless you are Eldar. Eldar don't give a crap about any anti tank weaponry lol.


Even then, 4 lascannons aren't going to be knocking out Land Raiders any time soon.

Mine do. And so does the other marine/chaos players who have learned over the past twoish months in my area how effective 4 Lascannons are, instead of driving around like dolts with meltas, or taking horridly craptastic Obliterators.


Vehicles can move, which is reason enough to take them. Foot squads can get Lashed, PBS'd, and run off the board, vehicles cannot.

Vehicles can be killed easily with a single anti tank weapon. heck, you dont even need to destroy vehicles. There is only a 1 in 6 chance that your vehicle will eb able to fire its main gun next turn after being penetrated.


With cover the way it is, it's impossible for foot squads to really dig an entrenched enemy out.

YES!!!!! Thank you for proving Havoks and Devs are good.


Enter vehicles with mobility to bring nasty stuff like flamers and assault troops in.

Yup! I agree. Can't have it all right? Then again this has been part of the game for 2 decades, so nothing new here.


I respect your opinion, but play against a couple competent mech armies and let me know how it turns out.

I do, with my IG, and my opponent's vehicles get raped. I don't win all my games because IG suck in CC< but their vehciles sure as hell don;t survvie lol. They can't handle all the Lascannons I bring to bear. Except my Eldar opponents. They just laugh at my anti tank be it melta or lascannon. Go figure lol.

Zigmunth
08-20-2009, 10:01 PM
The way I use Dev in my Raven Guard army is to take a full 10 men squad 2xHB 2xLC and run them based on weapon type. Sergeant always goes with 2xLC.

So... for 270pts (170 + 30 + 70) I get two teams. The 2xHB team always covers the flank with Rhinos and 2 Tacs in them. the 2xLC team always covers the flank where my Assault and Vanguard goes. This setup protects footsloggers from vehicle / dread attack and 2xHB team clears ground for my two Tacs to jump out to.

That's theory... I tend to suck with my rolls even with 2+/3+ on 2xLC team. I manage to suck it out! In general it tends to make my opponent think more about how to move his vehicles or at least gather some fire power for other units to get up close and personal.

The other thing is... I prefer two 5 men squads, cause they can suffer 3 wounds without loosing the heavy weapon and the difference in points is only 80pts. And you can shoot two different targets, not just one.

I am contemplating on heavy another 4xPC squad, for Apocalypse or just for my Red Scorpions army (they prefer to stand and shoot - fluff wise).

Chumbalaya
08-20-2009, 10:02 PM
Mine do. And so does the other marine/chaos players who have learned over the past twoish months in my area how effective 4 Lascannons are, instead of driving around like dolts with meltas, or taking horridly craptastic Obliterators.

Oh, I see what you did here.

Fatecrushers is awesome, Orks are competitive, Monoliths are good, and 'stealer spam totally works.

EmperorEternalXIX
08-21-2009, 01:55 AM
I do, with my IG, and my opponent's vehicles get raped. I don't win all my games because IG suck in CC< but their vehciles sure as hell don;t survvie lol. They can't handle all the Lascannons I bring to bear. Except my Eldar opponents. They just laugh at my anti tank be it melta or lascannon. Go figure lol. Comparing IG lascannon spam effectiveness to devastator spam effectiveness is just a bad idea. On paper it seems like the marines would be better, but there are less of them, they cost more, have less wounds depending on the setup, they don't have access to things like bring it down, and they certainly can't be bought in the numbers that IG HWTs can.

With that said a dev squad with 4 lascannons is going to HAVE to be minmaxed to keep points down...at max they can be spammed to 3 squads. Even minmaxed this is more than 25-30% of a 2000 point list (690 points -- almost half!!!!).

If you are going to spend that many points on anti-tank capacity, it is much wiser to get the much killier, more survivable, less avoidable, more vesatile option: 9 land speeders with multimeltas and heavy flamers. If you wanted to dedicate them to anti tank work you could skim some points off the top by disincluding the HFs (even though geared that way these are still cheaper than the spazcannon Devs).

I run one squad of these guys and they wreak havoc throughout the game. If they don't kill their weight back in smoldering tank wreckage, then they serve other purposes (barbecuing GEQs for example). It is especially fun to move flat out and contest an otherwise-held enemy objective. These vehicles have been the difference between a draw and a win for me many, many times. Utility aside, they reliable decimate vehicle targets and have a huge threat radius.

As if all that weren't enough, I'd be remiss to ignore the fact that Vulkan, green piece of crap that he is, does not twin-link spazcannons...

That being said, no offense, but coming into a thread about devastator loadouts and proclaiming the lascannon effective when you can field 3x more of them is a bit off-center of the matter at hand, and I really don't think the two compare. The meta game is totally different; being on the other side of a guard army there is a lot more to deal with, and sparing guys to deal with those umpteen heavy weapons is a lot harder, especially for low-model-count armies. In the space marines, as you can see from my example, 700 points is in 3 units that aren't scoring, aren't a threat to everything on the board, and are static and immobile (and thus, easily neutralized).

Land Speeders or Sternguard in a drop pod with Combi-meltas will always beat out lascannons, in both cost, practice, and even theoryhammer/mathhammer.

RocketRollRebel
08-21-2009, 02:22 AM
Eh as a Blood Angel Player I never touch devastators. I liked them as a modeling project but there are just too many things that do the job better or cheaper. Besides in my opinion I think armies (especially space marines!) do much better when they are mobile and able to maneuver.
As an imperial guard player who has been running vet mech lists with 10 tanks (at 2k), I really don't worry that much about las cannon dev teams. They may take out A tank but odds are I will have them either weakened or running or dead pretty quickly. Also las cannons vs AV14 isnt what it used to be. I like my odds against them needing a 6 to penetrate!

Despite what you may say about eldar. Mobile melta weapons are king tank hunters in 5th edition. Sure serpents and monoliths ignore the effects of melta weapons but Serpents are only one unit in one army and thats what auto cannons are for ;). Also you are playing necrons you can ignore the monolith and go for the phase out or hit it with a vindy or a dread in close combat! Its not like its moving very fast! Necrons have a lot of handicaps that you can exploit as it is! haha

and dont even get me started on the waste that i think missile launchers are! :p

Bloodthirster
08-26-2009, 10:40 AM
I like to run 4 plasma or 4 heavt bolter in my lists. The amount of shots the HB pump out makes them pretty effective at taking down light tanks, such as ork trucks, and light infrantry. The PC however are golden goodness, they destroy anything I fire them at, and seem to be the only thing I don't roll 1's on, so that's a big bonus:D

Slann
08-28-2009, 12:58 AM
for anti tank take marine tac squads with las cannons split them up and hold the heavy weapon half back to shoot its cheaper this way , as for devs I like 4 HB's this is just good agianst every troop in the game .