Functional Chaos Societies

[Magos]

This was floating around a wee bit in my brain, but here me out for a second.

How would a functional chaos society work. I mean, why cant there be a chaos society built to a functional structure, that in between the blood sacrifice, street orgys, getting infected, and turning the mailman into a dancing monkey, that people couldnt live qausi normal existences.
Or am I thinking to much.

[CrusherJoe]

Um.

Yeah.

Well.


OK, I'll say it: you do realize that to have a society requires many things but perhaps the most important thing is Order. To accomplish this, it means the individual must give up some "rights" to society or a government through an abstraction known as a social contract (meaning, the individual more-or-less gives us the "right" to harm/kill/maim anyone else that has also entered in to the same (or very similar) social contract. In return for agreeing not to do certain things, the individual gains the same protections offered under the social contract. For example, you won't kill off Ted because he took your favorite parking space, and Ted won't kill you because you're so arrogant you think that parking space is yours when it is quite very clearly his. But should either of you decide to violate the terms of the social contact (break the law) then society has the right to either punish you for breaking the contract, or removing you from the society altogether (either temporarily or permanently).

I went through all that to point out that the concepts of a social contract and an individual giving up "rights" is the very opposite of what Chaos is all about -- Chaos being, literally, the very absence of Order. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law," probably best sums up a worshipper/servant/follower of Chaos.

That doesn't mean there can't be "societies" that are largely Chaotic in nature and/or focus. The main difference between a Choatic society and a "normal" one is the social contract is very different. The government is more than likely comprised of those that have the strength/weapons/army/goons/power/what-have-you to make other people do what they say by means of threat of violence and/or death. Further, no social contract exists that protects the rights of the minority view and/or the weak(er). Our fuedal system grew out of the very system (though it evolved somewhat: eventually the "commoners" expected and were given protection from other tribes/warbands/countries/etc. by the ruling class and either a warrior-aristocracy or some other means).

So, to answer your question: could a Chaotic society evolve/exist?

Sure.

You probably wouldn't want to live in it, though...probably not at all.

[Forhekset]

There is plenty of them in novels and such, from the Nurth to those in the Sabbat worlds (which there is a whole swathe of them) to even the Davinites. I'd say the most numerous are portrayed in the Heresy series, since they're constantly coming up against new human cultures that arn't to their liking.

Unfortunately the Nurth give me the impression of a middle east Islamic country. I guess it was the dry and desert setting mostly, and the fact they were *******ised as the 'enemy'. (no offence meant, but you know what I mean, hopefully)

They seemed perfectly normal really, yet their culture is steeped in chaos derived magic and religion. And thanks to Abnett, as usual, they're really a very interesting case study.

[Lord Anubis]

I went through all that to point out that the concepts of a social contract and an individual giving up "rights" is the very opposite of what Chaos is all about -- Chaos being, literally, the very absence of Order. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law," probably best sums up a worshipper/servant/follower of Chaos.

Hmmmmm... I'm not sure I'd agree with that. It's definitely Chaos from a scientific viewpoint (Chaos theory, for example), but I'm not sure such a definition holds in the 40K universe, where Chaos is more a term that's been applied to a specific force/realm. Any followers of the big four have very specific guidelines to fall within and follow. Heck, Tzeentch and his followers make plans. Huge, sweeping, convoluted plans, granted, but that still implies forethought, restraint, and organization.

I think Dan Abnett's Traitor General shows a great Chaos society. It's not society as we know it, but it still has tiers, organization, industry. What I found interesting was that it didn't seem all that far off from the way Imperial society is described in most "official literature"... ;)

[ThePov]

Yes, from what I've been able to gather together, Chaos does indeed have the capacity to form a functional society, just not a society as we know it. As far as I can tell, it's often a mix of the forced religion of the Imperium (only Chaos instead of the Emperor) and the "I killed the last guy who was in charge, and I can kill you too, so I'm in charge" mentality of the Orks. The specifics of the society would vary if it were to be devoted to one god or another, but all of them would work, even Khorne. Heck, the Blood Pact, which is notable amoung Chaos armies for their high levels of training, technology, and tactical adeptness is devoted to Khorne, as are the planets they hail from.

So yes, I echo the statements above. There could be a functioning civilian society devoted to the Chaos gods, but they would be highly militaristic and would not look much like society as we know it, if at all.



This does raise an interesting question of whether or not Chaos societies NEED the order of the Imperium as their foil, opposite, and rival? If Chaos was to win out over and wipe out the Imperium, how long would the resulting Chaos society endure before it splintered and fell in upon itself? Honestly, I can see it going either way, though the option of Chaos taking over the Imperial system of beauracacy and becoming slightly more tame seems cooler to me, personally.

[Savark]

I would imagine Chaos cultists to act very much like early christians, attending mass (in this case rituals) in secret and hiding from Romans (imperials)

[Forhekset]

One of the great things about 40k is that the 'good guys' are really just as horrible as the 'bad guys'.

Personally I wouldn't want to live in either society.

But like I said there's many examples of fully functional socities aligned to Chaos, and they do function in almost the exact same way, replacing one godhead with another.

[hummus]

I was thinking something like an aztec society were they make sacrifices to their various gods

[Mike X]

There is plenty of them in novels and such, from the Nurth to those in the Sabbat worlds (which there is a whole swathe of them) to even the Davinites. I'd say the most numerous are portrayed in the Heresy series, since they're constantly coming up against new human cultures that arn't to their liking.

They seemed perfectly normal really, yet their culture is steeped in chaos derived magic and religion. And thanks to Abnett, as usual, they're really a very interesting case study.

I also noticed this.

My initial thought was, "Wait, how can a society function normally if it worships Chaos?"

[Kahoolin]

If you've ever read the Dungeons and Dragons Dark Elf novels by R.A. Salvatore, I think Menzoberranzan is pretty close to how a Tzeentch world might function. It's basically a city of noble houses with fake social rules who are always scheming and warring with each other, plus sacrifices to evil gods etc.

Although in the GW mythos Chaos is not a social thing, it's a physical/spiritual corruption. So you couldn't for example be a "normal" person and be native to a Chaos world. You're either corrupted or not, it has nothing to do with your society. I imagine living on a Chaos world would be like living in a dream/nightmare. Things would change constantly with no regard to cause and effect. You would quickly go insane by normal standards.

[Shadowmancer]

I think that a functional Chaos Society would work along similar lines to that of a pure anarchist society but with more blood, disease, excesses and mutations.

[Cereal n' Milk]

it could just be like older societes, where there was not order at all or more feudal, with lords ruling areas, getting tributes, like sacrifices and rescources needed

[JamesP]

Although in the GW mythos Chaos is not a social thing, it's a physical/spiritual corruption. So you couldn't for example be a "normal" person and be native to a Chaos world. You're either corrupted or not, it has nothing to do with your society. I imagine living on a Chaos world would be like living in a dream/nightmare. Things would change constantly with no regard to cause and effect. You would quickly go insane by normal standards.

I agree. If you are living in an environment where Chaos is so powerful that the warp has bled into/overlain the material world and reality is in flux, you'd go mad if you weren't already.

Daemon World shows Chaos societies, mostly at the feudal level, on a world that changes pretty regularly and the entire population seems to recognise that a) everyone's a bit mad; b) everyone's at the mercy of the gods; and c) the world keeps changing so nothing lasts forever - empires rise and fall fairly quickly. The societies that are there mainly seem like the Chaos Marauders in WFB, though there's one major Slanneshi group that dwell in a massive city.

And that's on a daemon world that is relatively stable. If you live on one deep in the Eye of Terror, where the ruling daemon reshapes it every day - assuming it even has days anymore - it would be very difficult to have any sort of society. You'd end up with something similar to the warbands deep in the heart of the WFB Chaos wastes.

I reckon it's only on the more stable Chaos worlds, like in Traitor General, that you can have a properly functioning society. Pure Chaos, as on 'proper' daemon worlds, makes everything - the terrain, the atmosphere, everything living, time and space itself - too unstable to have a society.

This is pretty much stated in Ravenor Rogue. The fixer, Culezan (sp?), states to Ravenor that he can only do his work and live his life if everything doesn't dissolve into pure Chaos. The smart/ still vaguely sane followers of Chaos would recognise this. The easily-led/ dumb/ mad ones won't, and end up as gibbering mutated wrecks.

[John Connah]

If you think about it, according to the Emperor, the world we live in today would be considered a Chaos world :P

I like to think of a lot of chaos worlds as the way a couple people posted, usually a relatively normal world except they worship a Chaos god instead of the Emperor.
Usually there's still a central figure (governor, priest, etc) that guides the day to day workings of the planet. Not everybody is a mindless cultist. There are even things like the PDF or whole Guard regiments that stay intact but turn to Chaos. I like to think they maintain some of their discipline :P

[Unclehomefries]

In one of the Ultramarine books (the one where they go to the 'homeworld' of the Iron Warriors in the Eye of Terror) the 'society' is just competing warsmiths in their fortresses trying to one-up each other technologically and then try to blow each other up. They essentially have slave labor and are ruled by the CSMs.

Compare this to the novel Mechanicum in the Horus Heresy series and you see a very similar society.

Makes you question the Imperium

[Sitnam]

I would say that all Chaos societies can be 'functional'- it just depends on the function. Being dedicated to the likes of Slaanesh, Nurgle, Tzenntch, and Khorne, their function it to give their societies members comfortable lives. Their function is to serve their gods. That is their purpose, their drive. The CSM (True Chaos, not Renegade SM) attempt to serve their gods due to extreme dedication, with the most efficient and glorious champions being gifted by their gods. The gods dont gift them for their dedication. They gift them because the more powerful their servants, the more likely it is they will go oin to further benefit that gods fancy (Be it lust, battle, or disease.). So i would say Chaos societies are fairly well functioned.

[Magos]

Indeed, I just rather like the idea of chaos societies with discipline. Or perhaps something out of the Edward Lee Infernal Triology...

[Sitnam]

Indeed, I just rather like the idea of chaos societies with discipline.

Hmm. Would the Blood Pact from the Gaunt's Ghost series fit that idea? They are comparatively well ordered and organized in comparison to other Chaos warbands. Of course their just a military organization, not a society.

[RocketRollRebel]

I would imagine Chaos cultists to act very much like early christians, attending mass (in this case rituals) in secret and hiding from Romans (imperials)

hahaha

Anyway I did read an interesting fan story involving how cultists act outside of combat. Granted it was a WHFB related story about a Khorne worshiper but it provided some very interesting insight.

[Magos]

Any link, I'd appreacite that.

Actually, yes, I rather do like the Bloodpact, they seem to embody a more functional sort of Khornate Worship/

[Xas]

depending on the main god and the type of imperial world you compare it to I'd say 50:50 of the comparisons fall towards chaos beeing the more "comfortable" to live within.

slave labor isnt such an issue if you compare it to the low-hab workers of hive cities. the heresy novels show us that chaos is more about philosophy than actual good&evil. interchange the imperial doctrine with a greek/roman like pantheon of gods and you basically have "chaos" soziety.

it might be true that the extremists usually are crazy *******s but that is true for the imperial believes as well as allmost every religion we know (heck, christions whose god is supposed to be pure love and doesnt grant the champions magical powers at all managed to do abhorrent things like the witch-hutns or crusades in the name of their religion).



all in all I could envision a society based around the 4 gods of chaos to be quite enjoyable for the upper middle class. regular sacrifices in animals (or slaves) to the gods secure you their wellwishings. nurgle could protect you from his "gifts" and those who wouldnt want to die of old age could embrace him for eternal life as a semi-same undead. slanesh would grant exquisite pleasure for flesh and mind in his/her temple. khorn would maybe be the patron of justice, bloody justice that is but what would serve more of a detterent than trowing every criminal into a fighting pit with a khornate "gladiator"?
tzeentch would prolly be the most controverse god. known to the "normal" people as weaver of fate and made sacrifices to to save them from bad luck but fully embraced by high-politicans to guide them in their shemes or scientists/sorcerers to improve their abilities.

I'm not talking deamon world (warp leeching/overblending real-space) but just chaos pantheon absed soziety.

[Forhekset]

Just cause it's Chaos doesn't mean it's unstructured and crazy anarchy.

Every Chaos culture would be very very strictly structured.