Where did all the ladies go?

[therealjohnny5]

Ok at the risk of starting a flame war, in all seriousness i'm curious as to why we don't see much, in relation to quantity of written text, in reference to the women of the 41st millennium. Now this could obviously be for a couple of reasons (lets exclude all assumptions of male dominance and chauvinism, k?) that i can think of at least,

1) in general history shows us that there are mostly universal cultural tendencies to refer to the collection of humanity as masculine (i.e. mankind, man, etc) or gender neutral (i.e. humanity, humankind, etc.). Rarely are we or people referred to en mass as feminine. So we could conclude from this that when all the human inhabitants of the 41st millennium are referenced as a whole or large group, they are simply being referenced in general and masculine. Now this presents some issues to resolve if this is the case:
a) This idea fits when referring to the whole or groups at large, however it does little to answer the individual characters we see in the collected writings are all male, as are the armed forces seen in the stories.
b)This idea also gives tremendous credit to the creators and writers of 40K works in their creative planning and execution through numerous different publication sources in developing a cohesive logic behind even the expressions of the created world. And i find that highly unlikely considering the contradictions we've seen in numerous places.

2)Another reason the prevalence of male gender inhabitants could be that in the list of stories, fiction, tales, movies, and whatnot most heroes are male. Mind you before you go crazy about the long list of female heroes out there, lets be honest and admit that the list for male and female protagonist hero characters in all of literature and film (especially scifi and fantasy) don't come close to matching each other in length. Ok i can buy this idea to some degree, now where's the problem here?
a) This can account for the protagonists in our stories, however it does nothing to address the mass of males that make up the entire Space Marine Legion, the collective military of the Imperial Guard, and such.

The only concentrated evidence we have of 41st millennial women are the battle sisters, and they can even be seen as an extremest group by some in relation to the entire imperial culture. So the question is where are all the ladies? Ok i can buy that they aren't written by male authors often in general anyway and much less in a grim dark future of 40k, however they should at least show up in the social structures right? We have a theoretically integrated military force here in the US, so shouldn't there be women in the IG? There are some written examples of planetary defense forces or Arbites as women but i can only think on a couple.

If cultural lines of 40k are so grayed bc of violence that race is looked at based on what "unsociable and excessively violent world" you were recruited from, no longer on simple race (and this is a necessity when writing on a large scale that covers galaxy, things have to get smaller), then it seems that gender would also be grayed as well. That being assumed (and that women aren't being protected as "breeders" which there is no evidence for -thank God) then it's only natural to assume that women would be members of the military forces through out all the Imperium, right?

So there should be a female element to military forces. And it would be significant in number if the ratios of male to female hold true still in the 41st millennium. All things considered if we are talking deployed forces of military on the scale of millions in one conflict, then everyone who could hold a weapon would be recruited, in times of crisis anything goes, so women would be inducted and recruited just like men. (Again unless some sort of "save women" plan was put into effect, which there is no evidence to.) So at least a quarter on the conservative side should be women.

This would go beyond the IG, Arbites, and Planetary defense forces. The Battle Sisters excluded from this discussion bc in comparison to the masses of other military forces out there, their number is far too low to be the "Oh all the women are Sisters" answer. And this does bring reasonable question (No flaming please!!) then to why are all space marines male? They are implanted with the gene-seed so it can't be that they are genetic clones of the emperor. In theory only the primarchs have any legitimate reason to be male. So if a woman could make the cut to become a space marine, and i'm sure in all this time at least one could have, then where is she?

Now keep in mind that all of these thoughts require that we take into consideration we are talking about a fictional world that is being detailed to us by writers. As one who is working on his own first full novel, i came into realization that when describing the fantastic or a different culture than any we know, we are limited by our understanding of the real and tangible world around us, and therefore can only use the things we know to describe the fantastical. The same experience is encountered frequently in theological studies. We try and define the infinite in tangible and finite terms. So we automattically limit some of our abiility to describe things adequately...but that's almost beginning to sound like a tangent...so point being as a writer you are required to either describe things so your reader can understand it using words they are familiar with (which can sometimes leave moments that don't quite fit in the realm of your story) or to create something new and then have to explain to the reader what that new something means and help them understand it in light of the fictional world. Hence the possible simplification of people to the male gender.

Please if it's possible as far as you are concerned this is a legitimate question i'm curious about and am not interested in flaming or trolls, though i do feed one occasionally that lives under a bridge near my apartment, but it's a nice troll. He only gets cranky when he's hungry, and i can relate, that whole blood sugar thing and get ya if you're not looking...so if you can't write something nice, just shout at your computer screen...thanks.

[eldargal]

Most of it boils down to male authors writing for a male audience (not a criticism, just a fact). A few points though:

There are all female and mixed gender Imperial Guard regiments, the number varying from world to world. Half of the Cadian IG should be female as it explicitly mentioned that the entire population is mobilised for war.
The number of SoB could well be much higher than the fluff states. There may only be 10-20k sisters in each of the major orders but for all we know the Ecclesiarchy could maintain thousands of minor orders on its worlds with 1-2 thousand sisters in each. It would make sense for the largest and most powerful institution in the Imperium to do this. The idea that the Ecclesiarchy would have fewer troops inthe entire galaxy than the Papal States on earth maintained is absurd, we aren't dealing with genetically modified superhumans afterall, just women.
The male-only Space Marine thing is based on a line in the fluff which states that the implants are reliant on male-only hormones, which do not exist. Put it down to loss of knowledge by the Apothecarium.

It would be nice to have a discussion on this subject which doesn't devolve into 'want moar bewbs/don't want moar bewbs' as is so often the case. Well done on setting the tone in your post.:)

[Old_Paladin]

Well, to anwser some of your questions.
We do see (or at least hear about) female in the Guard. For example, in Gaunts Ghosts. The original Tanth had cultural rules the forbid females in the military. However, when they took in the Vergast recrutes a significant percentage were woman (which the Tanth took a while to adjust to).

There are many high ranking Inqusitors (or members of their retinue), even a small number of female commissars (although it is stated that the woman that do so are considered especially hardline, because of the male dominated field).

I believe that some of the fluff also talks about all female guard regiments.



Ultimately, things in the 40k universe are the way they are, because of how real-life modern western society is. There are still a lot of things that society still divides into masculine and feminine; the military is a clear example. While women are allowed to join, it is still viewed as a very masculine field, and the majority of soldiers are men.
Likewise, tabletop miniature wargamers are a strong majority male; which means that the escapist fantasies are aimed at what men might be able to project upon (ie. hyper-masculine men as the leads, doing ultra-manly things with their guy buddys, which may or may not be to impress the occasonal female seondary characters).

[Lane]

There were several female characters in Titanicus. They ranged from Mechanicus, upper class merchant and Princeps in training to lowly PDF troopers. Their attitude and abilities also varied widely as well. Overall they were well portrayed.

There are several factors that may explain why the military is largely male.

Choice - even if all citizens are required to train for military service it could be that men are more likely to chose it as an occupation. Since Imperial troop levies tend to draw from PDF forces first you would get more males. Gangs are another source for troop levies. Again males are more likely here, at least among those that get rounded up.

Physical - males tend to be larger and stronger and aggressive than females. OTOH females tend to have better endurance, long term metabolic efficiency and determination. If Guard induction includes simple physical tests and physical stat checks then they may exclude many potential good soldiers.

Occupational service exclusions - certain skilled workers may be exempt from the draft. IIRC the Soviet Union had a fairly widespread view that women were better at math and science, men better at creative endeavors. Due to physical factors men may also be forced into more menial jobs. Women in the 40k setting could provide a disproportionate number of technical jobs thus exempt from the draft.

Selective Birth - Societal values and population pressure may dictate that more males be born. If mortality rates are low the need for new births is also low. Since a single woman can have many children you do not need as many women. You could easily have a stable population with only 20-25% females and still ship off 10-20% of the population to the guard.

[therealjohnny5]

Most of it boils down to male authors writing for a male audience (not a criticism, just a fact). A few points though:

There are all female and mixed gender Imperial Guard regiments, the number varying from world to world. Half of the Cadian IG should be female as it explicitly mentioned that the entire population is mobilised for war.
The number of SoB could well be much higher than the fluff states. There may only be 10-20k sisters in each of the major orders but for all we know the Ecclesiarchy could maintain thousands of minor orders on its worlds with 1-2 thousand sisters in each. It would make sense for the largest and most powerful institution in the Imperium to do this. The idea that the Ecclesiarchy would have fewer troops inthe entire galaxy than the Papal States on earth maintained is absurd, we aren't dealing with genetically modified superhumans afterall, just women.
The male-only Space Marine thing is based on a line in the fluff which states that the implants are reliant on male-only hormones, which do not exist. Put it down to loss of knowledge by the Apothecarium.

It would be nice to have a discussion on this subject which doesn't devolve into 'want moar bewbs/don't want moar bewbs' as is so often the case. Well done on setting the tone in your post.:)

Thanks Eldargal, I too would like a productive conversation about the topic. As for the SM hormone thing, i'm not sure how i've missed this piece of critical information, but even with that being said, it seems a little ludicrous that not once in the gajillion years that everyones been around that not a single woman would have made it into the mix or at least been experimented with the possibility, or am i crazy on that? Especially in a time of crisis, and if the "entire galaxy is burning" isn't a crisis i don't know what is.

ultimately i agree that the major consideration here is that male writers are driving a ship full of primarily male readers who want to see stuff blow up and get smashed. I can speak as one of them, i typically read for the mental escapism and imaginative stimulation, so while i prefer a gripping story that's well written and engages more than my testosterone production (i could just go watch the Expendables on repeat if i wanted that) i admittedly don't look for too much from the black library or fluff, just a light read most of the time. I find other writers works fill the heavier reading role for me. but there i go digressing again...silly ADHD that i was never diagnosed with...

back to the writing concept, i just fell like if a balanced and well thought out work was being presented, then a coherent culture or universe would be represented in it. And part of a normal culture is women taking part in life, and if as the Old Paladin says, these writing mimic western culture than would equal rights and the prevalence of women be a no brainer? even younger children on the front lines would be seen.

Lets think rationally about this, if the world and galaxy that we know had deteriorated into war and your entire planet is basically a combatant production center, you and everyone you know likely loses their individuality and ultimate value is only found in sacrifice for the emperor, and that's undermined by the fact that you're just a faceless corpse at the end of the day among a million others, and thats only from your home planet. So that being said, the Imperial society would be forced to enlist men, women, and children. So if that's the case why don't the writers of the novels and the manual fluff, not incorporate this simple truth into the writings?

Do you think it's so undesirable for the average consumer of this game (which isn't just teens obviously) to be presented with at least a female SC in a codex, that's not a slut, or part of an all female army? Or perhaps bring in a writer who is comfortable in writing women and then develop a novel around a strong female protagonist?


Well, to anwser some of your questions.
We do see (or at least hear about) female in the Guard. For example, in Gaunts Ghosts. The original Tanth had cultural rules the forbid females in the military. However, when they took in the Vergast recrutes a significant percentage were woman (which the Tanth took a while to adjust to).

There are many high ranking Inqusitors (or members of their retinue), even a small number of female commissars (although it is stated that the woman that do so are considered especially hardline, because of the male dominated field).

I believe that some of the fluff also talks about all female guard regiments.



Ultimately, things in the 40k universe are the way they are, because of how real-life modern western society is. There are still a lot of things that society still divides into masculine and feminine; the military is a clear example. While women are allowed to join, it is still viewed as a very masculine field, and the majority of soldiers are men.
Likewise, tabletop miniature wargamers are a strong majority male; which means that the escapist fantasies are aimed at what men might be able to project upon (ie. hyper-masculine men as the leads, doing ultra-manly things with their guy buddys, which may or may not be to impress the occasonal female seondary characters).

I understand really what i think we are boiling down to is writing theory or at least writing methodology. The creative process had not been developed and the cultural interactions and practices weren't completely or at least thoroughly thought through at the start of things, and now we have a constantly evolving world that the game takes place in. i can see the challenge that could present.

[WereWolf_nr]

I think Eldargal's post really hits the point. Male authors writing for a male audience.

That being said, I think more recent works have put more emphasis on the females. Ciphas Cain series (mixed guard regiment, female Inquisitor), Purgation Corps (mixed Stromtroopers and Sisters of Battle), and a new series with a female Arbite lead come to mind.

Oddly, GW doesn't have any (current) female Guard models; while having female Tau and Eldar models.

[Old_Paladin]

Well, in responce to some of your questions.
Just because we have laws about gender equality (and many other equalities) doesn't mean we have an enlightened social mindset to allow the most/best results from said laws.
The sad fact is that things like sexism and racism still exist (they just often aren't as bad as they were 50 years ago). It's also hard to overcome 100,000 years of hardcoded DNA that makes males not want to see females hurt or killed (as it's been said before, humanity would still be fine with a very low male population).

As for the 'total war' situation of the 40k universe, most of the fluff is coming around to the fact that realistically, a huge majority of the population live pretty normal lives as farmers, desk clerks, miners, merchants, factory workers, etc.
Things wouldn't be in a state much different then the Allied Nations durning the Second World War.

[AirHorse]

I think Eldargal's post really hits the point. Male authors writing for a male audience.

That being said, I think more recent works have put more emphasis on the females. Ciphas Cain series (mixed guard regiment, female Inquisitor), Purgation Corps (mixed Stromtroopers and Sisters of Battle), and a new series with a female Arbite lead come to mind.

Oddly, GW doesn't have any (current) female Guard models; while having female Tau and Eldar models.

Actually Ive got a female catachan with a grenade launcher :P Shes actually being used as part of my necromunda gang or as part of my inquisitors retinue, but none the less she is a female guard model :)

[Grailkeeper]

I've done some thinking about this

All of the female guard models are metal- rocket girl, warrior woman, Tona Criid, the catachan grenadier and the female commissar. There are no plastic guardswomen that I am aware of.

The Reason for this imho is to do with the interchangeabilty of parts on the plastic sprues. With a sprue of plastic pieces for warriors of one gender all the parts can be used in combination with each other to create a model human. However if two genders are catered for this is not going to be the case. The arms and possibly the legs maybe interchangeable but the heads and torsos will not. So if a plastic sprue is created with both genders its going to cut down the possible variety significantly- ie this part is for this model etc- which seems slightly contrary to the philosophy of plastics.

In the case of eldar this is possible to have both genders depicted on the same sprue as they are slimmer and more androgenous than humans and for the most part the heads are enclosed helmets so the facial features can't be seen. the only way it would be possible to tell if a model is female is by the torso anyway. The female torsos are interchangeable with the rest of the eldar kit.

This still doesn't explain why GW doesn't create an all female squad for guard, but if they were to make more female models as line infantry to match the fluff it would have to be through an all female squad imho.

[therealjohnny5]

I've done some thinking about this

All of the female guard models are metal- rocket girl, warrior woman, Tona Criid, the catachan grenadier and the female commissar. There are no plastic guardswomen that I am aware of.

The Reason for this imho is to do with the interchangeabilty of parts on the plastic sprues. With a sprue of plastic pieces for warriors of one gender all the parts can be used in combination with each other to create a model human. However if two genders are catered for this is not going to be the case. The arms and possibly the legs maybe interchangeable but the heads and torsos will not. So if a plastic sprue is created with both genders its going to cut down the possible variety significantly- ie this part is for this model etc- which seems slightly contrary to the philosophy of plastics.

In the case of eldar this is possible to have both genders depicted on the same sprue as they are slimmer and more androgenous than humans and for the most part the heads are enclosed helmets so the facial features can't be seen. the only way it would be possible to tell if a model is female is by the torso anyway. The female torsos are interchangeable with the rest of the eldar kit.

This still doesn't explain why GW doesn't create an all female squad for guard, but if they were to make more female models as line infantry to match the fluff it would have to be through an all female squad imho.

true, and not to devolve to a modeling only discussion, i have to agree with Mel when she has talked in previous threads that a woman in SM armor or Carapace armor is mostly going to indistinguishable from a man. Especially at 30mm levels. lol So i doubt it'd be too drastic of a difference. Though i am more interested in the fluff presentation of women in the 41st millennium. I'm glad to hear that there is a growing mix of things coming out in the books (i'm behind on my reading apparently),.

As a writer i have a number of female characters in my current story, i wonder if some men simply have a difficult time writing women? i have the advantage of a writers group to help balance me out as well as my wife who i can draw from experience with, or at least ask when i'm unsure.

[Grailkeeper]

true, and not to devolve to a modeling only discussion, i have to agree with Mel when she has talked in previous threads that a woman in SM armor or Carapace armor is mostly going to indistinguishable from a man. Especially at 30mm levels. lol So i doubt it'd be too drastic of a difference. Though i am more interested in the fluff presentation of women in the 41st millennium. I'm glad to hear that there is a growing mix of things coming out in the books (i'm behind on my reading apparently),.

.

according to teh Fluff the armageddon steel legion has mixed units, but it is impossible to tell which gender a legionnaire is untill they speak thanks to the great coats/gas-masks. So I suppose if you want to run a mixed or unisex guard army the Steel legion is the way to go. You'll have ladies fighting for you, you just won't be able to tell who they are. (also in keeping with my above post- steel legion- metal models)

[Denzark]

I will try and put some logic in - I am not just trying to get a rise here.

1. I have always thought The imperials are like nazzy germany in terms of society, or perhaps some autocratic feudalistic one. Before some politics clever person tells me what sort of society it actually best represents, one of the facets of these socieities are that females took a back seat to the warriors - the huns actually issued a medal for motherhood. Hence in this backward way, when that part of the imperium is not at 100% total war (not al planets are geared up for it like cadia) the ratio will naturally be down - 40K is about fighting, hence less women.

2. Given that, are they under-represented? Dan Abnett, arguably the greatest BL writer, litters his books with them. Simply, if Mrs Miggins is running a pie shop on the home planet while Guardsman Miggins is 18 light years away winning medals for butchering xenos, this is what will be in the books.

3. With the whole Space Marine only being male due to zygotes being keyed to male hormones and tissue type issue, and the proliferation of marines as the most profitable, poster boys of 40K, that will automatically skew the amount of female protagonists - arguably us males should complain as we are in most cases not 9' tall impossibly muscled, gentically engineered killing machines with religious angst and heavy weaponry.

4. If we have true equality, and women are equal to men, then a male character is no more viable, valid, or interesting than a female - and vice versa. So therefore if equality is true, stories with 100% male characters are perfectly acceptable - proportional representation of real-world race/colour/creeds/sexual orientations add no relevancy to any real world discussions on equality so why should the authors put them in? And if someone was to say they are, what should they represent? UK proportions, where the fluff originates from? Or should it depend on the author?

5. As an aside, is the issue of how many murdering slaughtering orgiastic genocidal drugs and occult worshippers appear, and the immorality of all races particularly chaos, important? No I hear you say, its fiction. Then why does it matter how few women there are in it, its not real nor is it meant to represent reality.

PS we are bordering on female space marine discussion here. That idea would be like James Bond being anything other than an English white male voracious heterosexual - at diametrically opposed odds to the story and pretty poop.

[Lane]

As for the SM hormone thing, i'm not sure how i've missed this piece of critical information, but even with that being said, it seems a little ludicrous that not once in the gajillion years that everyones been around that not a single woman would have made it into the mix or at least been experimented with the possibility

IIRC even males have a low rate successful implantation, if women are even half the male rate they would be impractical. Marines also recruit from warrior cultures. If there are no cultures whre females are likely to be the top warriors then they do not get recruited.



Do you think it's so undesirable for the average consumer of this game (which isn't just teens obviously) to be presented with at least a female SC in a codex, that's not a slut, or part of an all female army? Or perhaps bring in a writer who is comfortable in writing women and then develop a novel around a strong female protagonist?


I thought the stories about the Arbites had a female lead, not sure since I have not read.

IMHO they need a damn good reason to include a female SC in a codex in anything other than an Inquisitor. Political correctness, gender equality, blah,blah, blah is a piss poor reason. In fact since the 40k universe is such a non nice place they might as well make a point of excluding female characters. Except the Inquisition, because you are always wrong and they are always right.

[Lane]

In the case of eldar this is possible to have both genders depicted on the same sprue as they are slimmer and more androgenous than humans

So are you saying the Eldar males are girlish or their females are butch? If the later you may just be the first to accuse any Eldar of being butch.

[eldargal]

I have to say I disagree with you on a few points:

1. The Imperium is most definitely Feudal. Each planet is largely independent and run on its own form of goverment under the planetary governors while paying tithes in men, materiel and money. I understand what you are saying re **** Germany not allowing women to fight, but we know for a factthe Imperium does though it varies world to world. This feeds back into the feudalism argument, in my opinion.

2. Yes, they are, at least in game terms. How many female SCs are there? Why isn't there a book about the heroic exploits of Guardsman Sally Miggins?

3. There is no biological basis for this. It would be diffferent if 40k humans were referred to as merely humans, you could argue that humans in 40k are different, but they are specifically referred to as homo sapiens which means us.

4. I've no problem about all male books at all, but by this same logic an all female cast book is equally valid and viable, and how many of those are there? Even that SoB comic from a decade or so back had men in it. Plenty of story fodder about, Wych Cults, Banshee temple, SoB, all-female Guard regiment etc.

5. Not sure what your point is here, to be honest.




I will try and put some logic in - I am not just trying to get a rise here.

1. I have always thought The imperials are like nazzy germany in terms of society, or perhaps some autocratic feudalistic one. Before some politics clever person tells me what sort of society it actually best represents, one of the facets of these socieities are that females took a back seat to the warriors - the huns actually issued a medal for motherhood. Hence in this backward way, when that part of the imperium is not at 100% total war (not al planets are geared up for it like cadia) the ratio will naturally be down - 40K is about fighting, hence less women.

2. Given that, are they under-represented? Dan Abnett, arguably the greatest BL writer, litters his books with them. Simply, if Mrs Miggins is running a pie shop on the home planet while Guardsman Miggins is 18 light years away winning medals for butchering xenos, this is what will be in the books.

3. With the whole Space Marine only being male due to zygotes being keyed to male hormones and tissue type issue, and the proliferation of marines as the most profitable, poster boys of 40K, that will automatically skew the amount of female protagonists - arguably us males should complain as we are in most cases not 9' tall impossibly muscled, gentically engineered killing machines with religious angst and heavy weaponry.

4. If we have true equality, and women are equal to men, then a male character is no more viable, valid, or interesting than a female - and vice versa. So therefore if equality is true, stories with 100% male characters are perfectly acceptable - proportional representation of real-world race/colour/creeds/sexual orientations add no relevancy to any real world discussions on equality so why should the authors put them in? And if someone was to say they are, what should they represent? UK proportions, where the fluff originates from? Or should it depend on the author?

5. As an aside, is the issue of how many murdering slaughtering orgiastic genocidal drugs and occult worshippers appear, and the immorality of all races particularly chaos, important? No I hear you say, its fiction. Then why does it matter how few women there are in it, its not real nor is it meant to represent reality.

PS we are bordering on female space marine discussion here. That idea would be like James Bond being anything other than an English white male voracious heterosexual - at diametrically opposed odds to the story and pretty poop.

[Denzark]

I have to say I disagree with you on a few points:

1. The Imperium is most definitely Feudal. Each planet is largely independent and run on its own form of goverment under the planetary governors while paying tithes in men, materiel and money. I understand what you are saying re **** Germany not allowing women to fight, but we know for a factthe Imperium does though it varies world to world. This feeds back into the feudalism argument, in my opinion.

In which case, in terms of feudal famous females, I give you Joan of Arc, Betty I, Eleanor of Aquitaine, if I stretch, the Empress Matilda. In which case, as I said, a pro rata representation would probably leave you with even less than you have now, as females took a back seat.

2. Yes, they are, at least in game terms. How many female SCs are there? Why isn't there a book about the heroic exploits of Guardsman Sally Miggins?

Jain Zar, winged Sainty bint. MAybe some DE? Knight Commander Pask clearly cross-dresses. But even if the raft of female assassins, Gaunt's Ghosts, Inquisitors, arbites, remembrancers etc, are not enough, what would this book add to the fluff pantheon, if the sex of the protagonist does not matter because they are equal?

3. There is no biological basis for this. It would be diffferent if 40k humans were referred to as merely humans, you could argue that humans in 40k are different, but they are specifically referred to as homo sapiens which means us.

There is no biological basis for psykers, although they are supposed to be an evolution.

4. I've no problem about all male books at all, but by this same logic an all female cast book is equally valid and viable, and how many of those are there? Even that SoB comic from a decade or so back had men in it. Plenty of story fodder about, Wych Cults, Banshee temple, SoB, all-female Guard regiment etc.

Totally agree, but WHAT would it add?

5. Not sure what your point is here, to be honest.

My point is that with so many extremes in the 40K universe of far more dubious morale standpoints, that we accept as a given - exterminatus, mindscrubbing, indentured servitude; then what's the big problem with the amount of women portrayed?

[eldargal]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Women_in_Medieval_warfare

But how famous they are is irrelevent, the fact is the role of women in the Imperium is shaped by individual planets not the centralised adminstration. Some planets like Cadia and Tanith recruit significant amounts of women, others do not.

Two females in the DE codex, one in the WH codex, one in the Eldar codex. Its not a big count, and what would GW lose by having more? Generic assassins and what not aside.

It isn't stated in the fluff that certain people can't become psykers because of something which doesn't exist. Its a random mutation, which makes a lot more sense than saying there are no female Space Marines because the implants rely on hormones and whatnot which are present in women anyway.:rolleyes:

What woudl it add? Nothing, if it were badly written. But if done well it would make the lore of the 40k uniform a little richer, in my opinion.

The problem as I see it is inconsistency and lack of purpose. Women are not discriminated against anymore than anyone else in 40k, we know some planets recruit women, we know women are equal in Eldar society (and possibly Tau). But next to no attention is given to them. I understand why (see my first post) but I do think it is a shame.

[Kettu]

That being said, I think more recent works have put more emphasis on the females. Ciphas Cain series (mixed guard regiment, female Inquisitor), Purgation Corps (mixed Stromtroopers and Sisters of Battle), and a new series with a female Arbite lead come to mind.

That being said, it's still kind of broken in how women are presented.

I personally don't know about the Arbite series so I can't say but I have heard many complaints about the main ladies personality being rather inconsistent as the story progresses.

Cain, whilst it may feature a Female Inquisitor, also features Sisters of Battle being to stupid to live (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooDumbToLive) and religious stupid. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeliefMakesYouStupid) And also features far too many turning to chaos. Which is kinda, you know, no meant to happen what with the only one sister has ever turned in the history of the Sisterhood.

Doesn't Mr Mitchell have to even hand wave (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave) this break in cannon with "Oh, we don't tell people".

And never heard of Purgation Corps but a quick search revealed Redemption Corps (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/Imperial-Guard/Redemption-Corps.html) and a quick application of my Google-fu revealed this (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=7412) or to quote the specifics;
Another problem spinning out of the flashes is Sanders’ understanding of the Sisters of Battle. I can’t really say it’s a characterization problem, because the characters are fleshed out relatively well, but the use of the Sororitas in Redemption Corps is questionable. Without revealing plot points, the Sisters are used very poorly and with a seemingly poor understanding of their nature and background.

On a different note.
A two weeks ago in another forum there was a discussion about miniatures in which I jokingly mentioned there had only been three female minis produced by GW in the past three years.

Then I stopped to think and yes, across three systems, with several mixed gender armies in two of them, there has only been three female miniatures produced since 2007, all three are Dark Elf characters (Two sorceresses and one hero)

[Denzark]

Regretably, whilst I have no particular prejudice against this, I can't see what would be added purely by the fact of making the main character of any given story female - the 40k-verse would become richer simply by more decent stories, not because one of them is female - I would like to see more obscurities from the administratum talked about, or life on a non-hive but industrial level planet.

I think Mme L'Eldargal has it on the head when stating it would probably end up as 'Moar Bewbs' (although this is never a bad thing as Freud was clearly right)

[Grailkeeper]

another way of looking at it is how many female human models are there that look like the design brief was something other than "something fappable" (to use the internet term). in 40k there's the very rare Tona Criid model. in fanatsy theres teh very old repanse de lyonesse model, and the banshee (which is popping a bewb, just a decaying one)

[eldargal]

It wouldn't add anything, thats not the point. Its not about having token females, its about illustrating aspects of the fluff which have largely been ignored. A story about the SoB written by someone who actually understands and likes them could be absolutely fascinating, ditto for Howling Banshees and whatnot.


Regretably, whilst I have no particular prejudice against this, I can't see what would be added purely by the fact of making the main character of any given story female - the 40k-verse would become richer simply by more decent stories, not because one of them is female - I would like to see more obscurities from the administratum talked about, or life on a non-hive but industrial level planet.

I think Mme L'Eldargal has it on the head when stating it would probably end up as 'Moar Bewbs' (although this is never a bad thing as Freud was clearly right)

[AirHorse]

Personally I really dont think that gender is really an issue. The background has been laid down, and yes there is mentions of women having more of an impact than we generally see, but ultimately both genders are simply tools for writing the stories. Most of the background got writen like 30 years ago by some nerdy blokes, what do you expect :P.

Ok yes they are under utilised as a tool, but as the sob book I read shows most of the writers arent that good at using girls as main characters. That book was a disapointment considering how much interesting fluff there is to dig into. Dan abnett used female characters awesomely in his inquisitor and ghosts books so I dont feel that girls are ignored or anything.

I look at it this way, if the sisters of battle had originaly been writen as the blokes of battle then would it really stop the fluff being any less awesome? I dont think so really.

[therealjohnny5]

Regretably, whilst I have no particular prejudice against this, I can't see what would be added purely by the fact of making the main character of any given story female - the 40k-verse would become richer simply by more decent stories, not because one of them is female - I would like to see more obscurities from the administratum talked about, or life on a non-hive but industrial level planet.

I think Mme L'Eldargal has it on the head when stating it would probably end up as 'Moar Bewbs' (although this is never a bad thing as Freud was clearly right)

For me it's more a matter of balance in story telling. Stories, good engaging ones, reflect tangible aspects of life usually, at least in the scifi\fantasy genre, mixed with the imaginative. However the story and laws of the world are almost always grounded in reality. That being said i can't walk down the block or go to my dog run with out passing or encountering tons of women and men (and dogs). So common retelling of a story of my adventure to the dog run would entail the women that play a role in it. I'm not interested in an all male or female novel, but i am interested in a more thoroughly balanced story telling. of course this may be asking a lot considering the track record with codecies. :D

[imperialsavant]

G'day All!
I have just come onto this thread but wanted to state there are some writers who do include many Female characters in their stories.
I know the Gaunts Ghost books have been mentioned as one series with woman. Dont forget his wonderful "Living Saint" in that series but also in both his Eisenhorn & Ravenor Inquisition series there are many key female characters. Even in his "Brothers of the Snake" there is a key female.
Sandy Mitchell in the Caiphus Cain series even has the top ranking Officer of the 597th Valhallan a woman & then there is Jenet Sulla a key character in the History of the Imperium. He manages to include a female Inquisitor as the editor of Cains memoirs plus being his "love" interest. Then there is one book with the Sisters featuring as well & of course the Mechanicum woman in 2 of the books.
In his new "Dark Heresy" series again main women characters.
The Shira Calpurnia series now released in a omnibus has her as the main character, an Arbites Leader.
Faith & Fire about the Sisters is another one to recall.
Many of the Horus Heresy series have women as pivitol characters so you can see that women are not all that neglected. ;)

[Xas]

I think that there is no big discrepancy in the ratio of male and females in those areas that are not pictured as male-dominated.

Be it within real biological facts or not that females cannot become space marines it is one of the facts of 40k lore. This fluff was written back when much of the human biology that is now common knowledge was mystery to the uneducated people. Finally it is easy to find a scientific excuse for this fact. It might not a strctly male-only hormone but it could simply be the male hormone-mix that favours males to become marines over females.

with how the imperium sees technology nowadays it could also just be a pure myth and prolly only fabius bile would know (cause he is the only one dareing to mess with the process to make space marines). maybe the emperor just thought the general male to be more easy to fit into the warrior-only live of a space marine and so only produced males back then and told noone that you could make female marines as well.


with that accepted as fact I see many females in many of the 40k novels. examples:
remembrancers appear to be more than 60% female in the horus heresy novels and next to the space marines they usually play an important (if not for the story so at least for telling the story trough their POV) part in the novels.

IG regiments have females as it fits their planetary culture. ghaunts ghost are a good example but also the regminent that is pictured in one of the heresy books (legion?) where the whole high-command is female because they are all psykers gifted with the ability of communication and semi-omniscience.

Isnt it in titanicus where a female conscript takes over lead in her squad and maneuvres the well-balanced (on a gender scale) group?

AdMech seams to have a fair mix of genders. In Mechanicum you even have a female prime adept that is trying to opose the main antagonist. Afaik it is also a female who is takeing over to guard the dragon in the end?


all things considered I think that the 40k novels arent neglecting females, just that many of them are picturing a 50-70s view of gender-roles (men fight and do the "hard" work, women do the "nice" and homework).


I have not yet read any book heavily featuring cadian regiments but they should have a ~50% mix of genders. I also think that a few female SCs or normal chars even in the fluff section of the human codizies wouldnt hurt. I just think GW isnt dareing yet to do it for the fear of screwing up (afaik Bastonne would have been a good oportunity as he was a new invention for the IG dex?)

[WereWolf_nr]

Actually Ive got a female catachan with a grenade launcher :P Shes actually being used as part of my necromunda gang or as part of my inquisitors retinue, but none the less she is a female guard model :)

I have 2 of that model as well; unfortunately, she is discontinued along side the female commissar. There are some female Inquisitors still and the hospitalier.

[WereWolf_nr]

That being said, it's still kind of broken in how women are presented.

I personally don't know about the Arbite series so I can't say but I have heard many complaints about the main ladies personality being rather inconsistent as the story progresses.

Cain, whilst it may feature a Female Inquisitor, also features Sisters of Battle being to stupid to live (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooDumbToLive) and religious stupid. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeliefMakesYouStupid) And also features far too many turning to chaos. Which is kinda, you know, no meant to happen what with the only one sister has ever turned in the history of the Sisterhood.

Doesn't Mr Mitchell have to even hand wave (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave) this break in cannon with "Oh, we don't tell people".

And never heard of Purgation Corps but a quick search revealed Redemption Corps (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/Imperial-Guard/Redemption-Corps.html) and a quick application of my Google-fu revealed this (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=7412) or to quote the specifics;


Oops on my part for the name of the book.

Regarding Cain; the series has several leading female characters in his unit and from outside, besides the Sisters.

Regarding Redemption Corps; I will admit that the female guardsmen didn't really get that much screen time. However, when they did get text devoted to them, the author didn't make a big deal about the fact they were women. That could go either way.

[DrLove42]

Bit late to the party, but don't forget the female defence trooper (and her alive then deceased female squad mates) in Titanicus. And thats a portayal of a woman who has feminity but also gives a great human story, against all the massive war machines around her.

Also the next Eldar book (after Path of the Warrior) in that set is supposed to be about the female in Path of the Warrior as she goes through her Seer training, cos Path of the Warrior is supposed to be a set, but it ends...very definently (without too many spoilers...sorry).

And remember a lot of the races that the books are written about don't have women as such....Female Nids, Orks, Necrons or even Tau (only one female Tau has ever been mentioned...Shadowsword) just don't exist.

[Nabterayl]

There are all female and mixed gender Imperial Guard regiments, the number varying from world to world. Half of the Cadian IG should be female as it explicitly mentioned that the entire population is mobilised for war.
In the case of Cadians, it actually makes sense to me that most Cadian Guard regiments are predominantly male. Cadian women may be on the muster rolls but they still need to produce babies that are raised as Cadians. They can only do both while serving on Cadia, or at least in the Gate, itself. Female Shock Troopers serving halfway across the galaxy can still give birth, but their children won't be raised with the same mindset as they would have on the homeworld. So while the entire Cadian population may be under arms, I would expect to find a lower-than -expected proportion of Cadian women serving abroad.

[Tynskel]

Whatchya mean there are no 'female' nids---- don't you mean there are ONLY female nids. We have yet to see anything that would represent a 'male' in the bugs--- they are much more akin to ants. (hell, a bunch of the new bug models have very familiar looking body parts...)

Orks--- they are fungus, they are not male or female.

Necrons--- they are robots--- can't exactly have female robots and male robots...


As for making male n' female guardsmen--- they are all wearing that huge chunking piece of armor across their chest--- unless it was sculpted for beeeewwwwwwbbbss, there wouldn't be anything to see.

Really, all ya need to do is have a bunch of different heads. Everyone in the Guard is probably on some sort of horomone therapy, anyhow---- have you seen the size of their arms?

[Duke]

What?!no female robots? My life is over...

I am really looking forward to seeing that female seer book. And as people mention it I feel that there are actually a lot of examples in the reading we get from gw. Many of the main characters in hours heresy novels are women... And are very well written females at that... If we assumed it was "men writing for men" then the women would also be written for men and that just simply isn't true, I feel.

Duke

[eldargal]

There are certainly a few in the novels, but the novels are not canon*. How many females are mentioned in the codices and whatnot? How many female special characters are there even for races that have no gender discrimination? Then there is the lack of models, most of the females being very, very old or non-existent.


*GW > BL, GW can alter the fluff to invalidate BL fluff but not the other way around.

[Duke]

True, it does seem that the codices are quite lacking in the female representation. Lets see where most of the improvement lies

Eldar: Have female units throughout have had female SC's for a while, could possibly have more though.

Dark Eldar: Codex too old, will reserve judgement for later.

Chaos Daemons: A lot of slanessh is "female," if you can call it that.

Chaos Marines/ Space Marines/ Blood Angels/ Black Templar/ GK/ Space Wolves: Can't be females

Witch Hunters: Sisters can't be male, Inquisitors can be of either gender... Female SC's are there.

Tyranids: Gender neutral or "Asexual" pick how you want to call them, but not male and not female

Orks: Gender Neutral... Though seem to have more "masculine traits," than "Female traits,"

Tau: IIRC, almost no female representation...

Imperial Guard: IIRC, no female representation.

IMHO: after looking at each codex and where there can be improvements I think that females are represented in the codecies that can represent them. With the exceptions of Tau and Imperial Guard. I would say that nothing says you can't make a female guard squad or army... But the plastic range doesn't help much in that regard and would require a lot of conversion work.

Duke

[AirHorse]

Don't the tau have a female commander special character? Regardless I don't think it is really a big deal at all in the taus case, they are aliens anyway.

I don't think its a problem in the Imperial guard either tbh. The codex is writen well and as a whole keeps itself to the whole "we are the grunts at the heart of the warmachine" theme. I don't think that female special characters or anything would add anything apart from being fairly generic token mentions. Some of the male characters arent that inspired either really.

Model ranges are a different deal, but it's clear gw expects us to do a decent amount of conversion work for half the unit choices anyway so its not that unreasonable that there arent many models for people who fancy having a more female representation. A few as a collectors range or something would go down nicely though :)

[Aldramelech]

In the 41st Millenium there is only washing up and ironing............

[Shadow Queen]

I have 2 of that model as well; unfortunately, she is discontinued along side the female commissar. There are some female Inquisitors still and the hospitalier.

I thought she was a US Games day mini

[Denzark]

In the 41st Millenium there is only washing up and ironing............

HAHA this caused me a significant problem with my coffee cup-nasal cavity-PC keyboard interface.:D

[AirHorse]

I thought she was a US Games day mini

If you mean the female catachan with grenade launcher then I dont think so, since ive never been to the us :P

[Shadow Queen]

If you mean the female catachan with grenade launcher then I dont think so, since ive never been to the us :P

Nay, the Commissar mini

[therealjohnny5]

Don't the tau have a female commander special character? Regardless I don't think it is really a big deal at all in the taus case, they are aliens anyway.

I don't think its a problem in the Imperial guard either tbh. The codex is writen well and as a whole keeps itself to the whole "we are the grunts at the heart of the warmachine" theme. I don't think that female special characters or anything would add anything apart from being fairly generic token mentions. Some of the male characters arent that inspired either really.

Model ranges are a different deal, but it's clear gw expects us to do a decent amount of conversion work for half the unit choices anyway so its not that unreasonable that there arent many models for people who fancy having a more female representation. A few as a collectors range or something would go down nicely though :)

yeah O'shiva or something like that, my friend in our club has her. she's pretty BA. Admittedly this has turned to the gaming aspect and i was initially interested in the fluff side, but as Duke mentioned there are a higher degree of females or unrealistic areas for female characters to be plugged in at.

[Kahoolin]

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is how 40k stacks up to other miniatures games in terms of female representation. After all, fluff solely exists to sell models and provide background to games. I don't have experience with any of them, but do any other scifi mini wargames display an equal mix of genders in their warriors? I'd say probably not. I've never seen female Pig Iron soldiers for example.

To me the reason for this seems simple: The modern military notwithstanding, human history has created a situation whereby the average person automatically imagines a male when they imagine a soldier, and automatically imagines a group of males when they imagine a unit of soldiers. This game (like all other wargames) is about soldiers. To make the models 50% female in order to reflect fluff would make a statement on an immediate visual level that the game designers may not want to make, i.e. it would challenge people's immediate, visual preconception that soldiers are male. The majority of people don't buy things that seem intuitively odd to them. Regardless of whether or not there is gender equality in the fluff or the real world, what matters is people's preconceived notions, and challenging them is generally not good business practice. You can't make fiction too realistic (especially not overblown gothic science fantasy) or people won't like it.

Which is all just a complicated way of saying that the reason there aren't many females in 40k when perhaps, reasonably, there should be is because a bunch of mixed gender soldiers looks weird to your average 13 year old boy and they wouldn't buy it.