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  • Top 10 Reasons 40k is Still an Awesome Game

    I hear a lot of complaints ALL over the Internet about how Warmahordes is more balanced and competitive, X-Wing is cheaper and pre-painted, Fantasy is venerable, 30k is new and shiny and prestigious, and a dozen other games are more attractive... and it's all in reference to how those games are better than 40k.

    So, if you have cheaper options, more balanced options, more competitive options, and even options where the models are already painted for you, why is 40k still at the top of the charts?

    Here's what I perceive to be the top 10 reasons to pick up 40k and run with it. After all, we need a little perspective once in a while...

    1. Background - 40k still has one of the largest and most well developed backgrounds of the Sci-Fi genre. Star Wars and Star Trek may have more, but all held within a single galaxy, Warhammer 40k is incredibly deep. You can find histories of planets, chapters going back thousands of years! What's even better than that? You can add your own, and it'll generally be very well accepted as long as it's thought out. There is room for more, GW has designed the background in this way to help players play the kind of army they want to play. Which brings me to...

    2. Variety - Yes, Space Marines may get the most attention, but you can't deny that even within the Space Marines, there is variety. Tyranids, Tau, Eldar, Chaos Daemons and Marines, Imperial Guard, and a constantly growing variety of formations and other factions. With the advent of allies, you can play the kind of army that you want to play. With the openness of the community, you can convert what you want to convert, and play that kind of army. Want to keep it simple and play Ultramarines? You can do that too. There are no wrong options, though many in the community might say there are... which leads me to...

    3. Community - The Warhammer 40k community is excitable. On the Internet, new rumors are gobbled up and rancor gets spit out, but when you go to your FLGS or GW shop, I imagine the feeling is a bit different. You don't just sit around with your friends and spit bile at the models on the shelves, you talk about what you want to do, the positive things, the ideas you have for your army and the things you might need to get to make it happen. You get in touch with your local meta, and most importantly, that's where you actually PLAY THE GAME.

    4. Flexibility - This may seem like variety, but now I'm talking about the kinds of games you can play. When it comes to games like X-Wing and Warmachine, a lot of the games degrade into the exact same scenario, with a slightly different orientation of asteroids. With 40k, you not only have control over points levels, but also mission objectives and map type, and a wide variety of terrain, depending on your imagination or budget.

    5. Scale - 40k is at a great scale in army size. With things like Epic, you lose sense of how powerful individual models really are, whereas in 40k, you have those moments were your Power Fist Sarge somehow punches out a Carnifex, or where your Battlewagon slices through a whole squad of dudes on the other side of the table with lots of dakka. You feel when one of your models pulls through with something impressive, and you feel it when units start taking casualties. That scales all the way down to 200 points with Kill Team, and it scales all the way up to Apocalypse when you can bring your entire collection onto the table, plus some extra big toys. The models aren't so small that you lose appreciation for them on the table, and they're not so big that they become unwieldy between pieces of terrain.

    6. Expansion - You can make a full Ultramarines Chapter. The entire Chapter. All 1000 marines and accompanying weapon systems, vehicles, and variety of suits. You can make that Chapter all the way down to fluff, and then field the entire thing in one massive game of Apocalypse. You can add in a whole Imperial Knight house, and a Warhound, and a couple of Fellblades. You can make a huge 30k army and still field it in 40k. You can add in Forgeworld rules, Planetstrike, Cities of Death, Escalation, Stronghold Assault. You can do all of those things and there are rules for it. You can get excited, plan these games out with your friends, and then make it happen. No outside rules sources, minimal house-rules. As a collector, these sorts of things make me very happy, and keep me buying into 40k.

    7. Updated - We're in 6th Edition of 40k. That means there were 5 editions before that, along with various expansions that have also been updated. We've had a Space Marine Codex for each edition and at this point we have most of the armies in 40k fully updated to at least 5th edition, and soon those leftover will be up to 6th as well. As much as people complain about their personal army not having an update, really, truly, only Sisters of Battle players have any cause to complain at this point. Orks are coming up, and Blood Angels and Space Wolves will be shortly after that, and then Necron, Dark Eldar, and Grey Knights will come into the fold at their time. 40k is in a constant state of being updated, appended, and added onto, and while we may lose some things along the line, typically the game grows.

    8. Quality - Yes, yes, there are plenty of other companies with some pretty models, and they're constantly nipping at GW's heels for market share, but GW does have great models, and they are constantly one-upping themselves in quality and detail. Finecast might have been a mistake, but as we've seen, they're phasing it out for all-plastic, and the plastic models they're producing are not only beautiful, but fun to put together, and perfect to paint. Though older kits may show their age, GW's models are still of a fine quality, and when they're not... return them! GW and Forgeworld have nice return policies. A buddy of mine got a Plague Hulk missing it's gun arm. Forgeworld sent a whole new Plague Hulk. I myself got a bad batch of plastic glue, and when my FLGS shop keeper informed GW that my Raptors were falling apart because of it, they sent me a whole Forgefiend model! They not only push their design teams to make bigger and better kits, they keep their customer service sharp.

    9. Breadth - 40k is simply the biggest. Surveys show it. 40k is the game on top, it's the game that other games want to beat. That's why we have all these articles and people jumping ship to other games and complaining about 40k. GW can't stop competition from happening, but they can continue making a great miniature, and provide a fun game. And that's what 40k is, it's a fun game when you get rid of the tournaments, the politics, and the Internet loud-mouths. I've been beaten to a pulp in Warmachine and hated it. I've had fun battles in X-Wing and loved it, but with the models already made and painted, they sit in a box. I keep coming back to 40k because all my other friends have armies, and it's the game that people go to when they want to pick up a miniature game. Often, the above reasons are what draw people in...

    10. No Bad Guys - 40k has no bad guys. It has no good guys either. I left this one for last because it's unique. Video games struggle to find this sort of balance, and in most other games there are clear good guys and bad guys. In 40k, there are no good guys or bad guys, and even factions of the same race will war against each other over an ideal or a single planet. This makes the Chaos player feel justified, the Ork player excited to play Orks, and the Space Marine player happy to be a loyalist. In their eyes, their army is simply the best army out there. That's why they spent the money to collect it, spent the time to paint it, and put in the effort to learn it!

    So, to all ye unfaithful, all those that will call me a GW fanboi or what have you, I still think that 40k is an awesome game, and I'm looking forward to seeing what unfolds in the future. The models keep getting better, the lore keeps getting more exciting, the battles get bigger, and the games are more fun to me now than they were 5 years ago.

    To those who haven't played 40k, give it a shot, why don't you? Once you get past all the rancor and Internet hate, you'll find a community that is actually quite engaging, deep, and happy to have you along.
    This article was originally published in forum thread: Top 10 Reasons 40k is Still an Awesome Game started by DrBored View original post
    Comments 18 Comments
    1. Vangrail's Avatar
      Vangrail -
      Personally i love 40k the game is great. Yes they could change some rules and make it better but whatever. The models are great a lot of folks give gw flak about the prices. Honestly they are nit that bad. You get tons of extra bits and you can actually pose your models unlike most model companies. Most of gw sculpts do not require gap filling. They game is always developing and there is tons of selection. The game gets alot of hate but honestly ill blame the power hungry meta guys that are so closed minded when looking at a codex. Thank you for this post people need to relax.
    1. Blood Shadow's Avatar
      Blood Shadow -
      Haters gonna hate....

      I've noticed the same thing, but it may be that I use BoLS as my primary news site for 40k stuff, there's a lot of haters that come on here.

      Part of me wants GW to slow down a little, I've totally failed to keep up with most of the Xenos releases, the Formations etc are great.....just suffering from too much information....
    1. DrBored's Avatar
      DrBored -
      Thanks for the comments guys!

      The one extra note I'm going to poke at is about price... Yes, the hobby is expensive. When it's 40 bucks to buy a single box of 10 guys to get started, well, you really have to think to yourself 'Am I going to get this, or am I going to have lunch for the whole week?'.

      But every hobby is expensive. Video games are expensive. 500 dollars for an X-Box One, and that just gets you the console and a controller, not counting the extra controllers, games, Live subscriptions, and whatever else you put onto it. For all that money, you could easily get a 2000 point army.

      Then there's other hobbies. Have you looked into skiing? 30 bucks a day to rent some skis, and that's just the skis! Not counting the other equipment you'll have to buy. Big jackets, gloves, ski boots and goggles, and then you actually have to *get* to the place where you'll ski, which typically means gas, or a plane ticket, plus a hotel reservation if you're serious. We're well into Apocalypse-sized army with this hobby.

      It all comes down to what you're willing to do with your money. If you'd rather do other things with your money, do those things. The thing I like about 40k is that once you buy that 40 dollar kit of 10 guys, you're guaranteed to spend at least two hours just putting them together, and however many hours painting them, and then hours playing with them too. Yes, 40k has a huge start-up cost. Between supplies, paints, and the models themselves, there's really not a great way to do it cheap, and if you want to get into the competitive scene, you'll probably need to invest even more.

      But, like I said, that's the case with any hobby, and the more into it you want to be, the more it will take. When it comes to price, GW is expensive enough to keep me from buying everything that strikes my fancy, but inexpensive enough that if I set money aside for a while, I can afford that shiny new kit, and in the interim, I can work on the models that I have and play with what I have. To me, it sets a nice pace throughout the year.

      I really don't think that GW intended for people to buy everything for an army in one go. The way their releases are, one a week at best, it's more like they want you to start slow and build up slowly, to become a loyal customer that builds a collection over time. If you've got the cash, sure, go and lay down a couple thousand dollars and get a full tournament TauDar army, and commission someone to build and paint it for you so you can print out a netlist, buy a plane ticket, and stomp some faces in the big tournament scenes...

      Or, you can do what most people seem to do, and buy slowly but surely until you have a decent force that you can enjoy.

      Or, there's e-bay.
    1. StingrayP226's Avatar
      StingrayP226 -
      Dr Bored to compare prices you need to look at OTHER miniature games or similar hobby outlets... NOT other completely different hobbies/past times.

      GW/40k's competition is companies like Hawk Games, Spartan Games, Privateer Press, Corpus Bella (that is the right name for infinity's makers right?), Wyrd Miniatures, and so on... NOT Sony, Microsoft, and Ski item producters.

      Most of these other games have a much gentler price point to shallow to get in, and many of them their game is better built atm.

      Now all this being said I could list out issues with most other companies/games too so negitivity goes all around.

      Note I am a new player jumping in and I'm doing my best to do it on a limited gaming budget. Thankfully I had stuff I could trade to get started BUT my issue with some price points remain. I've ordered Mantic games Corporation minis on Ebay to see if I can use those instead of GW IG miniatures because of costs and I like the armor style of the Corp guys better anyway. This does mean my army will be illegal in any GW stkre but there are none around here so I'm fine for now.
    1. ElectricPaladin's Avatar
      ElectricPaladin -
      Quote Originally Posted by StingrayP226 View Post
      Dr Bored to compare prices you need to look at OTHER miniature games or similar hobby outlets... NOT other completely different hobbies/past times.

      GW/40k's competition is companies like Hawk Games, Spartan Games, Privateer Press, Corpus Bella (that is the right name for infinity's makers right?), Wyrd Miniatures, and so on... NOT Sony, Microsoft, and Ski item producters.

      Most of these other games have a much gentler price point to shallow to get in, and many of them their game is better built atm.

      Now all this being said I could list out issues with most other companies/games too so negitivity goes all around.

      Note I am a new player jumping in and I'm doing my best to do it on a limited gaming budget. Thankfully I had stuff I could trade to get started BUT my issue with some price points remain. I've ordered Mantic games Corporation minis on Ebay to see if I can use those instead of GW IG miniatures because of costs and I like the armor style of the Corp guys better anyway. This does mean my army will be illegal in any GW stkre but there are none around here so I'm fine for now.
      Stingray is right. Wargaming as a hobby is a middlingly expensive one - more expensive than some, less than others. It's well worth it, for the fun I get from painting and converting and playing, but it's not cheap. However, GW is by far the most expensive of any game I play.
    1. DrBored's Avatar
      DrBored -
      If you're talking about comparing games, yes, GW is pricey, but I don't like doing that. 40k, miniatures in general, is a hobby. Playing Magic the Gathering is a hobby. Going Scuba Diving is a hobby. We put a resource that we can't save, can't invest in, and can't return, into our hobbies: Time.

      Most people have a couple of hobbies. For some, they work out, play 40k, hang out with their sportsy friends, and also have time set aside for reading. For others, it's playing video games from noon to midnight after their part time job. For others still, it's drawing pictures for a few hours, followed by internet browsing for a few more, spaced out by the dog's bathroom schedule.

      It's for this reason that I compare 40k as a hobby to other hobbies, because it takes up the resource of Time. Hours to build, hours to paint, hours to play. This isn't a quick game in any respect. Just taking the models out of their cases can take some time to set up. We're not talking about shuffling a deck to play a half-hour game of Go Fish.

      "But it's a miniature game and should be held to the standards of other miniature games!" I hear you declare. In the realm of market competition, sure, we can compare those games. X-Wing has a general cost of about 150 dollars, less if you're thrifty, to make a 100 point list and have all the supplies to play a game. You can start into Warmachine for 50, but after that, it gets about as expensive as Warhammer, especially when you mention 100+ dollar super large models. Fantasy is actually *more* expensive than 40k at this point because of the sheer number of models that you need to fill out those blocks of units.

      But when considering a hobby, something I'm going to spend a lot of Time and money into, I look at the above things that I listed as the top 10.

      Sure, X-Wing is born out of Star Wars, but there's not the depth to it, and when you play, there's a clear good guy and bad guy, unless you're doing 'training exercises'. There's no story. The models are pre-painted, which takes out customization, and there really aren't that many ways to play the game, which takes away variety and flexibility.

      Warmachine is balanced and competitive, but it's still bland, and the story does NOTHING to draw me in. There's no depth to it, in my opinion. Yes, it has more variety in armies, but it has little flexibility in how you play those armies. There are set ways, and if you don't do those specific things, your army falls apart.

      Again, when it comes to motivation to play a game, yes, I look for more than just how much it costs. If it costs a little more, so be it. It's a hobby, and hobbies, like skiing or scuba diving or modding your car are expensive in money and in time.

      I'd rather put both those resources to 40k, because it has the reasons I listed above.
    1. ElectricPaladin's Avatar
      ElectricPaladin -
      You are mixing your points and drawing false equivalencies. We are talking about the cost of the models. While you can certainly try to make a point about the quality of the sculpts and the casts - which is clearly related to the amount of money you pay for them - but bringing in the blandness of the setting and gameplay is irrelevant to this point. You're entitled to your opinion; I enjoy WarmaHordes, but I won't call you wrong, because that's a matter of opinion.

      The fact remains that most other games are much cheaper and give you significantly more bang for your buck. You can start a WarmaHordes army for $50. This gets you enough for a small game. You can start a 40k army for $100. This, for many armies, isn't even a playable force. You need to spend another $20ish buying a HQ. Then, when adding to your force, you need to consider that the average unit box is between $40 and $50. While this may be true of WarmaHordes as well, it's important to remember that the average WarmaHordes box is all you need. You don't see a lot of WarmaHordes armies with duplicates of a unit on the table, and you never see a box that contains only half of a unit. In 40k, you see both.

      If you want to take it further into other games, it's absolutely no contest. You can start Firestorm Armada with an $80 Patrol Fleet box. Additional squads cost ~$20 to ~$40. Once you own a given squad, chances are very good that you won't need a second instance of that squad ever, with the possible exception of a few of the mainstays of the fleet (carriers, battleships, and cruisers, for example).

      What about Malifaux? $40 gets you a master's starter box, which includes the equivalent of an HQ and... eh, two units? Malifaux is a true skirmish game, so "unit" is a messy concept. If you buy within the same faction, chances are that an additional master's starter box will give you not only a new master, but also more units that you can use with the masters you already own. Additional models are usually have a cost in the teens (with a few notable exceptions). Many of them are characters, so you don't have to buy doubles. For those that aren't characters, the game is still structured such that you won't have to buy more than one or two.

      And again, please don't get side-tracked on the quality of the models. There's too much opinion there. I happen to think that many of the WarmaHordes sculpts are extremely characterful, and as they lack the over-the-top ridiculousness, skulls-on-skulls grimdarkian absurdity of GW sculpts, they are much more believable as well. We can bandy around words like "cartoony" or "proportioned" or "bland" or "absurd" all day and all night, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about money.

      "Warhammer 40k" is not a hobby. It's a wargame. And among wargames, it's by far the most expensive and least beginner-friendly.

      I think you've got a point everywher else, but you're just wrong on this one. The math does not back you up.
    1. DrBored's Avatar
      DrBored -
      I'm not looking for the math to back me up.

      To me, Warhammer 40k is my hobby and the price is worth what I get out of it.

      Before I went into the top 10, I started with: "Here's what I perceive to be the top 10 reasons to pick up 40k and run with it."

      I, personally, don't care that other wargames are cheaper. They don't deliver the package that I'm looking for in a wargame. To me, 40k is what I really enjoy. The rules are there, the models are of nice quality, the backstory is great, the games are fun, and I've got more friends that play 40k than any other game. Malifaux started and died. Infinity started and died. Warmahordes is played by like 4 jerks that just roflstomp each other. X-wing is impossible to get two people to bring their stuff with them on a regular basis, but I can count on there being at least three people at my FLGS ready to play warhammer 40k regularly. It's the top, and I believe that the top 10 reasons I posted are at least some of the reasons it's remaining at the top.

      If Dropzone or Infinity or Malifaux were REALLY that good, they would have caught on and stuck. They didn't. That doesn't mean that *those* games are necessarily bad, but they don't have the same *draw* as 40k. Even though 40k is pricey, and it is, it still commands attention, and in my mind, it commands that attention for good reasons.

      So, I will continue to call 40k a hobby, because 40k is my hobby. It's not just the game, it's the modeling, converting, painting, hanging out with friends, reading, and also playing. "Miniature Wargaming" on its own doesn't define what I believe is the hobby to me.
    1. Lord Asterion's Avatar
      Lord Asterion -
      I don't see how, when talking about models, talking about the quality is sidetracking, there are noticeable differences in GWs quality compared with every other manufacturer of minatures for wargaming. I love Firestorm Amada and DZC and have big armies for both games, but what you're saying really isn't fair, you're comparing static, small resin pieces to the wonderful plastic kits that GW make, for the £21 i paid for 5 scions, I got hundreds of parts, every Scion is different, I can 20 of them with tons of character and choices. the £21 I pay for DZC gets me one Albatross drop ship, a small single pose model.

      And it is a hobby, wargaming is one facet of the hobby, just because fo you, wargaming is the main focus, don't make the mistake of thinking that is for everyone. And of course it makes sense to compare hobby costs with each other, even if they're different hobbies, this is something you do with your space time, its expensive, but he's trying to point out that any luxury product you buy to do in your spare time will be as expensive.

      Its also disingenuous to say Warmahordes is more expensive because you can play with a $50 army, you can play 40k perfectly well with a $50 army too if you wanted to, the other week I had a great time playing Kill Team all night.

      Hobbies are expensive, wargaming is part of the 40K hobby, if you want the variety, quality and lore that 40K provides, its well worth the price of admission and its easier for newbies than any other wargame, for the simple fact that GW pay to have stores in most major areas to teach new people about wargames and get them involved.

      - - - Updated - - -

      I will say that Dropzone is pretty new and hasn't had much time to establish itself but its massive displays at Salute 2014 this weekend prompted a lot of sales, its a game thats started small and is growing in a very smart way, but, it just doesn't have the same depth of story yet, I love the look of my UCM forces, but I don't feel the same attachment for them as I do with my Orks
    1. ElectricPaladin's Avatar
      ElectricPaladin -
      The trouble is that quality is subjective. You can't just traipse around saying "GW has the best minis because I said so!" There are some clear differences in quality, once in a while - like some of the super crappy Kickstarters you see once in a while - but it's not the same thing. In general, I like WarmaHordes models more than 40k models. In general, I think that Firestorm Armada's sculpts are brilliant and the only difference is that it's hard to make a space ship "dynamic."

      I'm happy to talk about price, and I'm happy to debate quality, but if you try to talk about both at once we are going to get confused.
    1. DrBored's Avatar
      DrBored -
      Quote Originally Posted by ElectricPaladin View Post
      The trouble is that quality is subjective. You can't just traipse around saying "GW has the best minis because I said so!" There are some clear differences in quality, once in a while - like some of the super crappy Kickstarters you see once in a while - but it's not the same thing. In general, I like WarmaHordes models more than 40k models. In general, I think that Firestorm Armada's sculpts are brilliant and the only difference is that it's hard to make a space ship "dynamic."

      I'm happy to talk about price, and I'm happy to debate quality, but if you try to talk about both at once we are going to get confused.
      Again, from a marketing or business perspective, you're spot on. Sure, there's great minis out there for less, often times minis of higher quality and caliber for much, much less than GW charges.

      But price is very much an 'aside' to all of this, in my opinion.

      What I'm trying to say is, I'm literally not trying to talk about price in the top 10 reasons above.
    1. ElectricPaladin's Avatar
      ElectricPaladin -
      Quote Originally Posted by DrBored View Post
      Again, from a marketing or business perspective, you're spot on. Sure, there's great minis out there for less, often times minis of higher quality and caliber for much, much less than GW charges.

      But price is very much an 'aside' to all of this, in my opinion.

      What I'm trying to say is, I'm literally not trying to talk about price in the top 10 reasons above.
      If price is no object for you, then by all means don't bother to mention it in your personal love letter to GW. I have all respect for that attitude - heck, I still buy GW minis, and I just spent like $400 on a Forgeworld superheavy, a Forgeworld dreadnought, and a few extra tidbits, like doors for the superheavy and some phobos-pattern bolters with chainbayonets (!!!). Are they worth the price? You know what... yes! I spent the money, so obviously I think it was worth it! Did it leave me feeling a little bit dirty, like I'd been gouged... kinda yeah, and that's a legit criticism of GW.

      But if you have enough cash that this doesn't bother you, I'm not going to complain. More power to you! But if that's the case, you really shouldn't argue when those of us who are less blessed say that the prices bother us.
    1. DrBored's Avatar
      DrBored -
      Quote Originally Posted by ElectricPaladin View Post
      If price is no object for you, then by all means don't bother to mention it in your personal love letter to GW. I have all respect for that attitude - heck, I still buy GW minis, and I just spent like $400 on a Forgeworld superheavy, a Forgeworld dreadnought, and a few extra tidbits, like doors for the superheavy and some phobos-pattern bolters with chainbayonets (!!!). Are they worth the price? You know what... yes! I spent the money, so obviously I think it was worth it! Did it leave me feeling a little bit dirty, like I'd been gouged... kinda yeah, and that's a legit criticism of GW.

      But if you have enough cash that this doesn't bother you, I'm not going to complain. More power to you! But if that's the case, you really shouldn't argue when those of us who are less blessed say that the prices bother us.
      I'm really confused. I STILL can't justify dropping 400 dollars on a Forgeworld model...

      but YOU'RE the one telling ME about being privileged?

      And thanks for the love letter comment, I was wondering when that point was going to come around.

      Anyway, I think this conversation is pretty much done. Thanks for the debate, or whatever that was.
    1. ElectricPaladin's Avatar
      ElectricPaladin -
      Quote Originally Posted by DrBored View Post
      I'm really confused. I STILL can't justify dropping 400 dollars on a Forgeworld model...

      but YOU'RE the one telling ME about being privileged?

      And thanks for the love letter comment, I was wondering when that point was going to come around.

      Anyway, I think this conversation is pretty much done. Thanks for the debate, or whatever that was.
      Hey, I'm sorry if you got me wrong! I didn't mean "love letter" in a derisive way. I love the hobby, too! I firmly believe that everyone should always expound enthusiastically about the things they love! Just don't do it in public without accepting the possibility that someone might disagree with you and want to talk about it!

      As far as "privilege" goes, it's not about who has how much money. Yeah, I'm a lucky guy. I've got a steady job, and I just found out that I inherited 10k from my grandfather, some of which I decided to pour into some Forgeworld, some of which I'm putting into a present for my wife, some of which I'm using to seal up some gaps in our budget, and the rest of which I'm leaving to accumulate more money. It's about how you look at it.

      You said "But price is very much an 'aside' to all of this, in my opinion."

      All I was trying to say is "that's great, but there are some people for whom price isn't an 'aside.'" When I mentioned that I had decided to turn part of a lucky windfall into minis, it was supposed to be a concession to your point that yes, it's obviously worth it for me, even though the prices are high. But most of the time for me - and all of the time for some folks - price isn't an 'aside.' It's a very real obstacle to them having as much fun in the hobby as they would like, and I think that it's a point that one can't ignore.

      I'm really sorry if what I was trying to say came out wrong. It's hard to read tone in a text post, I know, but really, all I meant was that prices are a very real concern for some folks - including, usually, myself - but the waters are muddied by the fact that a lot of those folks continue to buy the minis anyway.
    1. DrBored's Avatar
      DrBored -
      Quote Originally Posted by ElectricPaladin View Post
      Hey, I'm sorry if you got me wrong! I didn't mean "love letter" in a derisive way. I love the hobby, too! I firmly believe that everyone should always expound enthusiastically about the things they love! Just don't do it in public without accepting the possibility that someone might disagree with you and want to talk about it!

      As far as "privilege" goes, it's not about who has how much money. Yeah, I'm a lucky guy. I've got a steady job, and I just found out that I inherited 10k from my grandfather, some of which I decided to pour into some Forgeworld, some of which I'm putting into a present for my wife, some of which I'm using to seal up some gaps in our budget, and the rest of which I'm leaving to accumulate more money. It's about how you look at it.

      You said "But price is very much an 'aside' to all of this, in my opinion."

      All I was trying to say is "that's great, but there are some people for whom price isn't an 'aside.'" When I mentioned that I had decided to turn part of a lucky windfall into minis, it was supposed to be a concession to your point that yes, it's obviously worth it for me, even though the prices are high. But most of the time for me - and all of the time for some folks - price isn't an 'aside.' It's a very real obstacle to them having as much fun in the hobby as they would like, and I think that it's a point that one can't ignore.

      I'm really sorry if what I was trying to say came out wrong. It's hard to read tone in a text post, I know, but really, all I meant was that prices are a very real concern for some folks - including, usually, myself - but the waters are muddied by the fact that a lot of those folks continue to buy the minis anyway.
      Alright, fair enough, I got a little hot-headed there.

      The point I'm trying to get across is that if you're trying to prop something up to show off it's merits, you don't turn around and say 'but it also has these flaws'. There was the BOLS post a couple days ago about the Top 10 reasons why 30k is better than 40k, but they didn't mention price in there either. Those books are horrendously expensive, and you may need to buy all 9 in order to play what you want to play, 6 of which aren't even out yet. Then there's the Forgeworld-exclusive models that are, at minimum, an arm.

      So, yes, price is an 'aside', because it's not a merit.

      It's not a terrible thing either, hobbies cost money, which was the previous point I was trying to make.

      I wasn't trying to make a business statement, or a criticism of GW, because that wasn't the point of this topic. The point on prices being ridiculous has been made all across the Internet, that was not a point I wanted to bring up in the writing of this article.

      So, when I finally say that I suggest people should give 40k a try, perhaps it would have warranted a mention about the cost, but why?

      Instead, I encourage players to look at 40k, look at the fluff, the models, the Codexes, the conversions and armies other people have made, and decide for themselves if the price is worth it to them. It really doesn't take much to get into the game. Split a starter set with a friend and you're there. By the time you've built and painted those models and learned the rules, you might then be ready to expand your army, and in this way, 40k becomes decently affordable as far as hobbies go.

      You made great points, but it seemed to me that you were trying to poke at the business side of GW and their pricing, and how that wasn't worth it for what you get. That's fine if that's what you believe, but the original post was about merit, not flaw.
    1. ElectricPaladin's Avatar
      ElectricPaladin -
      Quote Originally Posted by DrBored View Post
      Alright, fair enough, I got a little hot-headed there.

      The point I'm trying to get across is that if you're trying to prop something up to show off it's merits, you don't turn around and say 'but it also has these flaws'. There was the BOLS post a couple days ago about the Top 10 reasons why 30k is better than 40k, but they didn't mention price in there either. Those books are horrendously expensive, and you may need to buy all 9 in order to play what you want to play, 6 of which aren't even out yet. Then there's the Forgeworld-exclusive models that are, at minimum, an arm.

      So, yes, price is an 'aside', because it's not a merit.

      It's not a terrible thing either, hobbies cost money, which was the previous point I was trying to make.

      I wasn't trying to make a business statement, or a criticism of GW, because that wasn't the point of this topic. The point on prices being ridiculous has been made all across the Internet, that was not a point I wanted to bring up in the writing of this article.

      So, when I finally say that I suggest people should give 40k a try, perhaps it would have warranted a mention about the cost, but why?

      Instead, I encourage players to look at 40k, look at the fluff, the models, the Codexes, the conversions and armies other people have made, and decide for themselves if the price is worth it to them. It really doesn't take much to get into the game. Split a starter set with a friend and you're there. By the time you've built and painted those models and learned the rules, you might then be ready to expand your army, and in this way, 40k becomes decently affordable as far as hobbies go.

      You made great points, but it seemed to me that you were trying to poke at the business side of GW and their pricing, and how that wasn't worth it for what you get. That's fine if that's what you believe, but the original post was about merit, not flaw.
      I guess I don't see a lot of merit in saying "let's have a public discussion, but only if you agree with me." I also see any public declaration of opinion as an invitation for public discussion... but then again, I'm an argumentative *******, so perhaps I'm not the best person to talk about this. If you'd made it a little more clear that you want to have a "let's be positive!" thread, then I would have respected that... but you didn't. You just posted your opinion, which to me looks like an invitation to disagree with you (argumentative ******* that I am...). If I'd better understood your intention in starting this thread, I'd kept my mouth shut!

      I agree that there are a lot of merits to the product GW has produced, but it's impossible for me to separate the product from how much is being charged for it. They are one and the same in my mind.
    1. DarkLink's Avatar
      DarkLink -
      I don't see how, when talking about models, talking about the quality is sidetracking, there are noticeable differences in GWs quality compared with every other manufacturer of minatures for wargaming. I love Firestorm Amada and DZC and have big armies for both games, but what you're saying really isn't fair, you're comparing static, small resin pieces to the wonderful plastic kits that GW make, for the £21 i paid for 5 scions, I got hundreds of parts, every Scion is different, I can 20 of them with tons of character and choices. the £21 I pay for DZC gets me one Albatross drop ship, a small single pose model.
      GW makes the best plastic kits, but there are other companies that blow GW's sculpts out of the water on individual models. And the Toughest Girls in the Galaxy line gets the award for best miniatures line ever, if it ever actually comes out.
    1. DrBored's Avatar
      DrBored -
      Quote Originally Posted by DarkLink View Post
      GW makes the best plastic kits, but there are other companies that blow GW's sculpts out of the water on individual models. And the Toughest Girls in the Galaxy line gets the award for best miniatures line ever, if it ever actually comes out.
      Yeah, that would be nice if it ever came out. That, I find, is the problem with a lot of these little companies or Kickstarter one-offs... the companies take *forever* to deliver the goods in any meaningful way. Then, you look to an established company like GW, and you can order what you want, or pick it up from your FLGS that day. Instant gratification.