Commissar and Cadian Battlegroup

Question for the group. The Cadian Battlegroup presents some questions for me. I was hoping the new FAQ would help, but it appears to have left this subject even more in the dark. I'll set it up as best I can:

The Astra Militarum codex treats Commissars different than Primaris Psykers, Ministorum Priests, or Enginseers. Commissars state in their rule entry "You may include one Commissar for every Company Command Squad and Platoon Command Squad in your Army. . ." The other 3 similar non-HQ units from the codex start with wording that is different from the Commissar, but identical to each other. "Each Astra Militarum detachment may include. . ."

Furthermore, the new FAQ's address the later 3, but do not address the Commissar. The question was "Can you add Ministorum Priests, Primaris Psykers, or Enginseers to Formations?" GW answers "No", but it doesn't address Commissars.

So, using the evidence I gather that you can include Commissars in the Cadian Battlegroup in accordance with the codex. GW did not address them in the FAQ, but did address the other units. Also, the wording states "Army" instead of "Detachment" in the codex, which further supports that they are essentially an option for PCS/CCS's. It also seems to match the fluff (although I'm no fluff expert).

The strongest argument against Commissars in a Cadian Battlegroup (outside the auxiliary formations) I've seen is that all options are included in the CCS/PCS sections. IE, a Chimera/Taurox is specifically listed in each unit as an option, instead of listing the units each transport is available to in the transport section. Therefor, Commissars aren't meant to apply to just any CCS/PCS.

Are there some rules references I'm not tracking, or is there a better argument to be made either way? I've got my paint scheme nailed down and am ready to start mass producing Guardsman and would like to be able to articulate any gray area well for my opponents so they don't feel cheated, and I don't feel like I'm in-necessarily handicapping myself.

The rule you're looking for is the rule that states independent characters (or other options) can not join formations that do not allow that character.

Formations have very specific units that must be taken. For example, a Librarian can not join the Sky Hammer Annihilation Force. The Librarian was not listed in the requirements for the formation and therefor is not allowed.

The Cadian Battle Group says you have to take a "Battle Group Command" so you have to choose between Company Command Squad (and all of their options,) tank commander (and all of their options including Pask,) Kell, or Lord Commissars (and their options.)

Regular commissars are not an option you can take in the CBG.

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Originally Posted by Cactus

The rule you're looking for is the rule that states independent characters (or other options) can not join formations that do not allow that character.

Formations have very specific units that must be taken. For example, a Librarian can not join the Sky Hammer Annihilation Force. The Librarian was not listed in the requirements for the formation and therefor is not allowed.

The Cadian Battle Group says you have to take a "Battle Group Command" so you have to choose between Company Command Squad (and all of their options,) tank commander (and all of their options including Pask,) Kell, or Lord Commissars (and their options.)

Regular commissars are not an option you can take in the CBG.

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Where is the rule about options and formations that you are referencing? While looking for it to read for further context, I unfortunately uncovered more that convinces me I can take Commissars.

First, I went back to the BRB and found this in the Choosing your Army section:

"Occasionally a unit's Army List Entry will state that the unit it describes does not take up a slot on a Force Organization Chart. These units can be included in any Detachment, even if all the . . . but they must still adhere to any restrictions detailed on the Detachment and its own Army List Entry. If the Army List Entry states that it can be included in an army that includes another specified unit, and that it does not take up a Force Organization slot, it must join the same Detachment as that specified unit. In either case, these units are part of the Detachment for all rules purposes and will gain any appropriate command benefits."

The closes I could find to your verbage was in the Restrictions of the CBG. "No unique models other than those listed here may be taken as part of this detachment."

A Commissar specifically states in it's entry that it doesn't take up a force org slot, and one can be taken per CCS/PCS. Also, they are not unique, which means they don't violate the restrictions from the CBG. Using the exert from the BRB, I don't believe there is any issue with taking Commissars in the CBG as long as you follow the normal rules (limit one per CCS/PCS, must join only specific units, only one can joint a unit, etc.). I'm now just worried it will cause confusion because there aren't many armies I know of that have non-FOS units. Maybe I'll just get a Lord Commissar and be prepared to shuffle him in and adapt my play if someone starts to look at me like I'm "That Guy."

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Originally Posted by Some Random Guy

The closes I could find to your verbage was in the Restrictions of the CBG. "No unique models other than those listed here may be taken as part of this detachment."

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That's the rule I was talking about.

The problem isn't with taking up a force org slot. The problem is that he isn't listed as a character available in the formation. Not list in the formation, can't be in the formation.

I don't know why he isn't listed. IMO, commissars should be fine in a Cadian force.

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Originally Posted by Cactus

That's the rule I was talking about.

The problem isn't with taking up a force org slot. The problem is that he isn't listed as a character available in the formation. Not list in the formation, can't be in the formation.

I don't know why he isn't listed. IMO, commissars should be fine in a Cadian force.

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Here's the problem that I see with this line of thought. The rule states that no "Unique models" can be taken. But a Commissar is not a Unique model, Commissar Yarrik is, but generic Commissars are not.

You can take a Commissar if you have a CCS or PCS in your CBG because he is an option in the Command choice just like the transport option and is not an independent character. If you only had a Pask or Yarrick you could not field a Commissar because non of the units he supplements are in the force. In short, he is an option in an existing HQ or command choice.

By comparison, engineseers, priests and psykers all fill a different niche and can only be assigned as an HQ choice not a supplement to one. Though I note staff officers must be a part of a CCS and should be regarded in the same way as Commissars for the same reason. Priests, psykers, engineseers and Lord Commissars are specific HQ choices fielded exclusively from CCS, and you seem to have a handle on how they are treated.

For simplicity, I have always regarded Commissars in the same light as heavy weapons teams, an option that might be taken but is not compulsory. So I don't see why they would not appear in the CBG matrix.