I shouldn't use the word 'balance' when I mean they do both equally well. :p
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I shouldn't use the word 'balance' when I mean they do both equally well. :p
Well, Eldar don't usually HOLD objectives. They take them on the last turn, which is easy in tournaments since unlike the BRB, you generally know when the game is about to end, with Jetbikes. When you know that turn 5 is the last turn due to time constraints, that is a lot better than moving out your jetbikes on turn 5 at a store, and the game has equal odds of ending on 5 or 6 or 7.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mystery
In addition, the real problem is not that Eldar are unbeatable. It's that their ridiculous amounts of Strength-D weapons basically invalidate a lot of other units. A LOT of units. Anything that is a single model, costs over 150 pts, and has no way to dump wounds onto cheap allies with Look out Sir, is not worth fielding against them (unless it's a Flyer). That's a good amount of Walkers and MCs. I wouldn't field Termies or Oblits either, or anything else that's more than 40pts per model and taken in squads. Basically, they turn the game into running: Hordes, Flyers, FMCs, or Eldar. Elite lists or lists depending on a unit of expensive models, no matter how tough they are, are just going to have too many problems against multiple D weapons.
This isn't so much an issue with Eldar. It's an issue with ranged D weapons. Frankly, tournaments are likely to just rule "no ranged D weapons", which is an unfortunate but necessary requirement in order to have a balanced tournament.
Even with the BRB you have a pretty good chance of knowing when the game winds, and with jetbikes you can nab enough T5 while still having some units left over to nab some more T6.
Not to mention thats if anything actually survives till T6.
Jetbikes are pretty obscene as a troop choice. I had been running two min squads of 3 in reserve for late game shenanigans and they always did remarkably well. I can't imagine the insanity of massed bikes. Add in the ability to one shot anything in the game with multiple units, an improved farseer and a still resilient Serpent and it just gets silly!
And we haven't even talked about the fact that the Eldar player is just gonna turn whatever they want to invisible and you're not gonna stop them...
Why do I keep seeing the argument that "the Wraithknight is not that tough because "x" unit can destroy it in melee"?
It moves 12" and has Battle Focus in the Wraithost formation. Good luck catching it with Assault Terminators.
Another unit I saw mentioned as a counter was a 6-strong squadron of Sydonian Dragoons....they have the mobility but I'll be amazed if they survive the Eldar shooting phase for more than one turn.
"Eldar are weak in melee, get them there." Eldar are the fastest overall army in the game with Dark Eldar perhaps being their only equals, good luck catching them in melee.
"Eldar are fragile." This is true, but they can spam guaranteed Shrouded and get lots of chances to roll up Invisibility for fewer points than most armies. Besides, it only applies to the infantry and the light vehicles; Wraiths and their "tanks" are extremely tough compared to their similarly priced competitors from other codices.
"Their ranged Destroyer weapons are short-ranged." One is 36" mounted on a 12" moving Gargantuan Creature, one is 24" on an immobile Artillery unit, the others are 12" and 8" on a 6" moving infantry unit that can buy a Fast Skimmer as a Dedicated Transport and gains guaranteed 6" Run moves plus the ability to shoot afterwards in the Guardian Host detachment. They also happen to be Battle Brothers with Dark Eldar that have innately Deep Striking transports in the Fast Attack slot as well as Webway Portals on cheap characters.
"Jetbikes are easily countered by massed rate of fire." The problem here is that Scatter Laser Jetbikes can spend an entire game staying out of range of Tau Fire Warriors, you know, the basic Troops choice that has a 30" range gun that almost no other Troops choice has. The Jetbikes have a 12" move to get into firing range with their 36" ranged guns, then can use their Assault phase "Jump" move to move back out of 36" range so even Fire Warriors literally cannot fire at them. "But advancing Fire Warriors can catch them?" If there are enough left to move up....who moves Fire Warriors up again? Don't forget Eldar are now also the most devastating army in the game at sub-18" ranges with their Destroyer weapons and basic Shuriken weapons.
"Jetbikes are easy to counter in general." People forget that the entire reason these are ridiculously good is that they have Objective Secured (Troops choice, people) and are Eldar Jetbikes, meaning they can make 48" objective-grabs in a single turn when necessary. That they are reasonably tough and put out easily the most points efficient long-ranged high-strength shooting in the game from a Troops choice makes them the best unit in that slot in the game. They are so insanely points efficient that spending points to counter them is often an obtuse and ultimately pointless move.
"Eldar have weak anti-air." People keep saying this and I keep scratching my head in disbelief. Swooping Hawks, Dark Reapers and Crimson Hunters annihilate vehicular flyers. Dark Reapers and Crimson Hunters are very good against organic flyers. A Flying Monstrous Creature-spam list like the "Pentyrant" tournament list will find they have nothing left other than the flyers after one or two turns, and even those will eventually be brought down by sheer weight of high strength, long-ranged firepower.
"Eldar flyers will be destroyed by Interceptor shooting." Eldar are the best army in the game at 36"-48" because they have more high-strength shooting and more rate-of-fire with that high-strength shooting than any other army by far; Scatter Laser Jetbikes only exacerbate this issue. If they are really worried about your anti-flyer units (and mind, both Crimson Hunters and Hemlock Wraithfighters are only worried about anti-flyer units that have Interceptor) then they can easily focus fire that offender down, even if it is a Riptide.
"The Wraithknight isn't that hard to kill." It was already one of the most durable units in the game that would usually survive a full round of shooting with one or two wounds left simply because Toughness 8 invalidates most armies' heavy firepower, especially in an edition where competitively most anti-tank units are built to strip hull points efficiently rather than outright destroy things. Add Feel No Pain (5+), It Will Not Die and the closest thing to an immunity to both Poison and Sniper weapons and you have yourself something that is far, far more survivable than that 295 point price tag indicates. And it has two 36" ranged Destroyer weapons and is still very strong in a melee without its melee Destroyer weapon, so you absolutely have to deal with it quickly as otherwise it will tear multiple units apart swiftly.
"Wave Serpents aren't that good anymore." They still are, actually. It is the most durable Dedicated Transport in the game and still has the effective firepower of a fully armed Predator despite the one-use-only profile of the Serpent Shield while also having a very handy twelve-model transport capacity. Wave Serpents are no longer over-powered but those propagating the belief that Eldar players will avoid it because it isn't good are kidding themselves. The only reason Eldar players would skip it is if they are purely taking Jetbikes as their "infantry replacements".
"'X' unit counters 'Y' unit from Eldar." With their new formations and buffs to Runes and Ghosthelms on some of the cheapest psykers in the game, Eldar have the most efficient high-mastery-level psykers in the game. Unlike Necrons, Tau and Tyranids that have all been raised as "effective counter armies based on their firepower", Eldar get monumental defensive and offensive boosts from a wide range of psychic lores - the most ridiculous of which is Invisibility, a power none of those aforementioned three armies can ever benefit from. Don't forget "free" twin-linking from both Guide and Prescience. If you are looking at Eldar units in isolation without considering all the incredible psychic powers they can potentially (likely) get, you are doing your own theory-crafting a disservice. The only armies that can reliably stop them in the Psychic Phase are Grey Knights and Tzeentch Daemons, but you barely see the former competitively and the latter gets obliterated in the match-up in most cases as one of its biggest strengths gets hard-countered by Destroyer weapons. If someone says "Thousand Sons" I will laugh as that army won't survive more than two rounds of shooting with their expensive and surprisingly fragile units, and that is coming from one of the biggest fans and players' of the Rubricae in Australia.
Before someone jumps on me for spreading "doom and gloom" or "not looking at the facts", understand what I am really trying to say.
There ARE counters to the new Eldar. However, most of the "weaknesses to exploit" and suggested counters raised so far are NOT ideal at all.
Of the main tournament armies, they hard-counter Imperial Knights, they out-shoot Decurion Necrons to the point that the latter's insane durability won't matter, they make Pentyrant stars cry because they will still kill them even without their dedicated anti-aircraft units, they can deal with ANY death-star build because they have ranged Destroyer weapons in high numbers, they completely shut down expensive models while having the sheer mass to obliterate hordes, flyer-heavy lists get dismantled by a strong anti-air presence, armies that win on mobility and scoring are outmatched because Eldar are the best by far at that style of play, all on top of having a strong psychic phase.
Is it the strongest army in recent memory? Uncomped, yes, there is no question that this is the case. This is why I am very curious to see how tournaments and competitive groups respond to this codex as, functionally, it is still very strong even if you take out the "cheese".
Again, note that I am talking about this book purely from the perspective of competitive play, where it basically destroys the current meta. Regular games will deal with it as they have any other "over-powered" tournament army; that fact becomes invalid in pick-up games based on respective player skill, army list construction and a friendlier environment.
That was a brilliant assessmentQuote:
Originally Posted by Learn2Eel
Oh, and for those that don't believe me when I say Eldar hard-counter Imperial Knights, check this out;
We assume each list is 1850 points as per the "tournament standard". I use the Warhost detachment with the Windrider Host as my mandatory Core formation. Regardless of how I build the units, I can easily fit in four Wraithknights with Heavy Wraithcannons. That is eight Destroyer shots at 36" range on 12" moving models per turn. Your average Imperial Knight player will use five Errants as that is 1850 points on the dot.
Now for some facts;
1) Even with five Errants, it is impossible for them to kill any single Wraithknight in a single shooting phase, not to mention they have to be lucky to actually do more than 2 Wounds to one per shooting phase.
2) The Wraithknights and Errants have equivalent range and mobility, so it quickly devolves into a shooting gallery with the Errants being more aggressive due to their melee Destroyer weapons.
3) Even if we eliminate the potential to roll a 6 on the Destroyer chart from all of the Wraithknights which will both statistically average one 6 every turn and instantly destroy even a full-health Imperial Knight, the Wraithknights still devastate the Errants. 8 shots hitting on 3s for an average of 6 hits rounding up, half of these are saved by the Knights' (assumed) well-placed shields, leading to 3D3 hull points that averages out to 6 unsaved hull points dealt. That is 1 dead Imperial Knight per turn (possibly 2 if a 6 is rolled on a separate Knight) assuming average rolls, whereas the Eldar player loses 1 Wraithknight per every three turns assuming average rolls without even accounting for the fact that the Knight player loses 1-2 Errants every turn.
4) A smart Eldar player will keep splitting each individual Heavy Wraithcannon shot between the Knights to maximize their chances of rolling 6s and destroying more than one Knight per turn. This will in theory mean they will kill 1 Knight per turn, then 2 Knights per turn, and alternate from there.
5) This is without accounting for the potential for both Prescience and Guide from the Farseer.
And that's a scary list for a lot more than just Imperial Knights, folks.
and thats without the windrider host doing anything
Yup, and Imperial Knights are a top tournament army right now. That Eldar hard-counter them alone makes them a meta-shifting codex, not to mention all of the other insanity present in the codex.Quote:
Originally Posted by daboarder