Can someone explain force organisation/formations/bound lists

I have just picked up 7th edition, the ork book and the Ghazghkull book. coming from 6th with a good understanding of how it worked I can honestly say I dont have a clue how to write an army now.

q1. can I take any detachment as a primary detatchment so the combined arms from p122 of the rules, the hord from the ork dex or the great waaagh from the ghaz book. additionaly I can then take any other detatchment I like such as the allied detachment or a combination of ork detachments.

q2. if I take more than a single detachment do the benifit from there individual detachment rules?

q3. formations... how do I take these. the rule book says they fit into normal force org slots. however most of the formations in the ghaz book wont fit into a detatchment. I cant take that much heavy support / HQ in a single detatchment. are they unbound (ie useless) only, as nerd-rage prevents unbound lists in all clubs? can I shoehorn them in across two detachments? ie the 5 battlewagon formation could this be spread between detachments

nb: I have searched I have googled - no joy

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Originally Posted by SolomonHill

I have just picked up 7th edition, the ork book and the Ghazghkull book. coming from 6th with a good understanding of how it worked I can honestly say I dont have a clue how to write an army now.

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That's happened a lot with 7th, mostly because people are not reading the rules and making assumptions based solely on previous editions.

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Originally Posted by SolomonHill

q1. can I take any detachment as a primary detatchment so the combined arms from p122 of the rules, the hord from the ork dex or the great waaagh from the ghaz book. additionaly I can then take any other detatchment I like such as the allied detachment or a combination of ork detachments.

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Any Detachment that does not exempt itself as a Primary Detachment may be taken as a Primary Detachment. Combined Armed Detachments, and I believe the two you mentioned, both qualify as such. Allied Detachments do NOT qualify as being able to be a Primary Detachment, though.

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Originally Posted by SolomonHill

q2. if I take more than a single detachment do the benifit from there individual detachment rules?

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The benefits of their individual detachments only affect models in those specific detachments. If you have two different Detachments and only one offers its Troops Objective Secured, then only the Troops in that detachment have Objective Secured, and the Troops in the other Detachment will not.

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Originally Posted by SolomonHill

q3. formations... how do I take these. the rule book says they fit into normal force org slots. however most of the formations in the ghaz book wont fit into a detatchment. I cant take that much heavy support / HQ in a single detatchment. are they unbound (ie useless) only, as nerd-rage prevents unbound lists in all clubs? can I shoehorn them in across two detachments? ie the 5 battlewagon formation could this be spread between detachments

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Formations are taken exactly as the formation describes, no less, no more. There may be sub options such as size of squad or weapons those models can carry, but they are usually quite clear as to which models are part of the formation.

I believe some formations take up Detachment slots, but most are meant to be taken and used outside of any Detachment. The rules of the formation will define it one way or the other.

thanks for the reply. I can see the confusion. The way it was described to me at the club was that the example combined arms detachment was the new version of the old force org. (it sort of is I know) but not in the sense that its a baseline for all armies organisation, mealy an option.

I have read and re-read the formations rules. they say a formation is a detatchment of its own. now i understand the detatchment rules better i asume this means they take up no force org slots in your primary detatchment?

Additional question whilst discussing Orks.
Bonuses to Detachments only apply to models within the detachment.

But the Ork Warband Formation gives the Warboss the ability to WAAAAGHH! every Turn. But the WAAAGHH special rule applies to all friendly Orks not just those in his detachment.

Would this be an example of an In Detachment bonus affecting models outside the detachment?

Sounds legit but didn't want to be accidentally cheating.

duplicate

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Originally Posted by SolomonHill

thanks for the reply. I can see the confusion. The way it was described to me at the club was that the example combined arms detachment was the new version of the old force org. (it sort of is I know) but not in the sense that its a baseline for all armies organisation, mealy an option.

I have read and re-read the formations rules. they say a formation is a detatchment of its own. now i understand the detatchment rules better i asume this means they take up no force org slots in your primary detatchment?

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This is becoming a common problem in local events. There really is not a force org anymore...and each new book will likely get it's own version.

I think of everything as a detachment/formation now. The cad is just a generic formation that is very flexible whereas the dataslates are very specific formations.

A good way to run a game or event is to state how many detachments you are willing to field/play against and go from there.

So, here is an example army at 1500 that doesn't use any CAD, yet is still a Battleforged (bound) army.
Blitz Brigade
3 Battlewagons with 3 Rokkits, Boarding Plank, Grot Riggers and a reinforced ram (150 each)
2 Battlewagons with 3 Rokkits, 'Ard Case, Grot Riggers, Killkannon, Zzap Gun, and a reinforced Ram (190 each)

Ghazghkull's Bully Boyz
MANZ Boss w/TL Shoota, 2 MANZ w/Combi Skorcha, 3 MANZ w/TL Shoota (250 for unit)
MANZ Boss w/TL Shoota, 2 MANZ w/Combi Skorcha, 2 MANZ w/TL Shoota (210 for unit)
MANZ Boss w/TL Shoota, 2 MANZ w/Combi Skorcha, 2 MANZ w/TL Shoota (210 for unit)
Total is 1500

I'm not saying that it is good. I'm saying that it follows the rules for a Battleforged list construction but doesn't have a CAD.

looks like ive been lost in the semantics of a formation and a detachment. which are essential the same thing. the only logical reason to differentiate is that a formation can be taken unbound.

Geedub should have just called them the same thing and denoted them with the same force org charts (boxes n lines) to save us all a headache.

I appreciate the time spent to reply everyone, with regards to the waaagh rules cross detatchment / formation i would asume as the "green tide" lets you trigger a rule each turn which in turn affects all models with the "ear we go" rule then it would be fine for the waagh to affect the whole army.

seems logical

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Originally Posted by SolomonHill

looks like ive been lost in the semantics of a formation and a detachment. which are essential the same thing. the only logical reason to differentiate is that a formation can be taken unbound.

Geedub should have just called them the same thing and denoted them with the same force org charts (boxes n lines) to save us all a headache.

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Formations are (generally) Detachments that have a very specific unit set, with no other units allowed in the Detachment, and no exceptions to them. Example: Stormwing Formation: 1 Storm Raven and 2 Storm Talons.

Regular Detachments provide groups of Roles (Slots, Choices, etc) to be filled which can be filled by anything that is in that Role. Example: Combined Arms Detachment: 1-2 HQ, 2-6 Troops, 0-3 Elites, 0-3 Fast Attack, 0-3 Heavy Support, 0-1 Lord of War, and 0-1 Fortification.

Can an army consist of only formations?

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Originally Posted by Opus Krokus

Can an army consist of only formations?

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No, but then you're in Unbound territory.

If you want a Battle Forged army, then everything has to be in a formation.

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Originally Posted by Gray Hunter

No, but then you're in Unbound territory.

If you want a Battle Forged army, then everything has to be in a formation.

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That's actually what he was saying.

As far as I can tell formations are unbound unless they'll go in a CAD but get certain command benefits which normally you don't get with unbound armies

But its really difficult to figure out what the smeg is going on especially after reading the ORK codex many many times trying to get my head around it.

So is the Formation in the ORK codex of 6 boyz squads + 1 Gretchin squad bound or unbound 6 troops is your maximum on a CAD with the Codex

While I understand that GW no longer gives a stuff about bound and all these supplements appear to be aimed at playing unbound or mini apoc games.

Anyways anyone any idea how these are being treated at local comps & clubs?

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Originally Posted by SnakeChisler

As far as I can tell formations are unbound unless they'll go in a CAD but get certain command benefits which normally you don't get with unbound armies

But its really difficult to figure out what the smeg is going on especially after reading the ORK codex many many times trying to get my head around it.

So is the Formation in the ORK codex of 6 boyz squads + 1 Gretchin squad bound or unbound 6 troops is your maximum on a CAD with the Codex

While I understand that GW no longer gives a stuff about bound and all these supplements appear to be aimed at playing unbound or mini apoc games.

Anyways anyone any idea how these are being treated at local comps & clubs?

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Actually you can have 3 HQ and 9 troops in a CAD on the Ork Codex. so the formation fits nicely into that. I'm sure I read somewhere that they take up a single slot. That may have been for 6th but can't imagine it's really changed that much.

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Originally Posted by SnakeChisler

As far as I can tell formations are unbound unless they'll go in a CAD but get certain command benefits which normally you don't get with unbound armies

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This is incorrect. An army is Unbound if it has any part of it not in a detachment or formation. Detachments and Formations are not and can not be Unbound. Formations generally do not have access to Objective Secured, but often have access to other bonuses.

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Originally Posted by John Bower

Actually you can have 3 HQ and 9 troops in a CAD on the Ork Codex. so the formation fits nicely into that. I'm sure I read somewhere that they take up a single slot. That may have been for 6th but can't imagine it's really changed that much.

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No you can't, an Ork Horde detachment is not a Combined Arms Detachment, you don't get Objective Secured, for example and models that roll 10" or more on their charge get Hammer of Wrath. A Formation, as it states in The Rules, is a special type of Detachment, you can't have Units in both a Formation AND a Detachment.

An Army is Unbound or Battle Forged, if you have units not in a Detachment, like Combined Arms or Ork Horde, or a Formation.

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Originally Posted by Path Walker

No you can't, an Ork Horde detachment is not a Combined Arms Detachment, you don't get Objective Secured, for example and models that roll 10" or more on their charge get Hammer of Wrath. A Formation, as it states in The Rules, is a special type of Detachment, you can't have Units in both a Formation AND a Detachment.

An Army is Unbound or Battle Forged, if you have units not in a Detachment, like Combined Arms or Ork Horde, or a Formation.

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Okay so I got the name confused, he did say on a CAD with the Codex; and CADs aren't in the codex, so you know what I meant same as I did. The ork one can have 3 & 9, but the point is how do formations work? I do remember seeing somewhere when they first arrived on the scene they didn't take up a slot as such. But then we didn't have 2 types of army.