Not that the GK dex isnt OP enought, but come on, shouldnt Paladins be fearless?
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Not that the GK dex isnt OP enought, but come on, shouldnt Paladins be fearless?
Having paladins run away from a psychic ability seems funny, but meh... I'd rather have ATSKNF than fearless for most melees.
Well, besides their insane cost, not being Fearless is big drawback for Paladins. You could say it *gasp* balances them out. Try tank shocking Paladins once in a while, they don't look so OP running away from a Trukk.
You can make them Fearless by joining Krazypantsov, at a big cost, but we know how much fun that is.
Simply someone actually decided to balance them out instead of following fluff.
ATSKNF is generally much better. It's more tactical whereas I tend to think of Fearless as closer to mindless (e.g. Orks in Mobs, Death Company with Rage).
It isn't necessarily mindless. Just not smart enough to turn and get to a safer firing position.
Because the fluff for space marines is that they know when to retreat, they don't just throw themselves into combat until they die. Grey Knights are still space marines.
ATSKNF sucks for Grey Knights. Grey Knights do not play like Space Marines. If your Grey Knight squads run off the board, you don't shrug and keep playing like with the other Marine codices. You lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by karlthepagan
In fact, I just played at the Bay Area Open. First game, half my army ran off the board on like, turn two, which made it basically an auto-lose for me. And it was for ridiculous stuff, too. I assaulted an outflanking psyrifle dread (my opponent was Grey Knights, too) and whiffed. My opponent was immobilized, hit with his one attack, wounded, I failed the armor save, failed the morale test, unit ran off the board. I then melta'd the dread, which took like three turns with three meltaguns within 6", and the explosion killed an acolyte and they ran off the board. Separately, my Interceptors also assaulted another psyrifle dread, one got kicked in the face, and they ran and died.
I actually kinda dislike the entire Morale system in general.
Aside from that, and a few stupid mistakes in my last game that turned a win into a draw, I did very well. It was an awesome tournament, the Frontline guys did an awesome job running it, plus it was pretty cool to meet Goatboy and Caldera and play Bushido Red Panda.
Tell that to the 101 Terminators that jumped into the First Battle of Armageddon. I think only 5 walked away from that? ;)Quote:
Because the fluff for space marines is that they know when to retreat, they don't just throw themselves into combat until they die. Grey Knights are still space marines.
My worst morale story was at the last tournament I played in.
My Nobz are forced to take a morale test from the Howling Cyclone effect of Njal's Lord of Tempests. They fail, then fail the boss pole re-roll and fall back over 10. I test to regroup, fail, fail the boss pole, fall back. Then they fail a 5th and 6th test to bring one of them to the edge and fall off the board. I lost the entire unit without them ever getting shot at or taking a wound (thanks to the painboy and FNP).
I tried different sets of dice for luck after the first set of fails. There is only about a 1/200 chance of failing 6 Ld7 tests in a row. For comparison, this is about the same odds of passing 61 Ld10 tests in a row.
I think maybe Mork hates you.
The boss pole doesn't let you re-roll the test to regroup, as the test to regroup is not a morale test.Quote:
Originally Posted by wormark
I kinda agree, but in the way that it should be more punishing like it is on fantasy, sure whenever you fail a ld test it hurts, but most armies usually have ways to override it, and you need to be really unlucky to fail them when near a table edge. On the other hand using Ld on fantasy is HUGE, you need to test it for lots of stuff and then the average is around 7 instead of 9 in 40k. Hopefully leadership will get more weight on 6th ed.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
Yeah, I had my fair share of bad luck with the morale system. It is never fun having to watch Lelith and 14 Wyches run away because they lost combat by 1..Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
I mean, falling back from combat, sure. Same thing with No Retreat. But why would Space Marines run away from the whole battle? Or any of the other dozens of crazy units in the game that shouldn't run like chickens, yet still do.
I prefer Warmachine's morale system. If you fail a test, it doesn't actually force you to run off the board. It just prevents you from doing certain things, and instead of falling back to your board edge you fall back from the unit that caused the test. It really works more like a pinning test than a fallback move. It's still a big problem, but it doesn't screw you over.
You'd think they would be....
Biggest fail I've had with them:
Multi assault. Me: 10 Paladins + 7 Purifiers Them: Eldrad and locks.
Lose combat by 1.
Paladins fail morale and run.
Eldar can't chase because still locked with purifiers.
Next turn 10 Paladins run off the board....
GKs not being fearless has been the hardest thing for me to adjust to since the new codex. I typically run either GKs or Tyranids, both fearless (or used to be). The whole concept of having units turn tail and run away is really strange when you've been using fearless armies for years :confused:
Cause they don't know what fear is.
are there any non-IC Terminators that actually are fearless?
I like the non-fearlessness. Fearless units can be kind of boring once they get stuck in. The fact that they could fall back makes more tactics and decision come out.
I generally agree. I think the pinning mechanic should be used more and the falling back mechanic should be used less. Seems like the first response you should expect from weakening morale is a unit opting to hunker down and stay put, while actually just breaking and fleeing the battle should be more dramatic and less common.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
In fact, I think that I probably wouldn't even have a mechanic for falling back--the movement restrictions are messy (it's almost impossible to write rules which actually force a unit what it seems like the fall-back rules are supposed to force a unit to do, and the extent rules certainly do not) and unnecessary. You could just have units become pinned and stay pinned until they either rally or break--and if they break, you could just remove them from the board, presuming them to be irrecoverably dispersed.
Anyway, I'm with you--I don't like the morale rules. And this is how I would change them.
edit:
Also, I like how, in Warmachine, the failed leadership test lets the unit maneuver to an extent--to escape an assault or get cover--but still ends up working a lot like 40k's pinning mechanic in the important ways. I think I would carry this over to 40k, also, frankly.
They don't need it. I would rather have ATSKNF.
The problem with 40k morale and falling back is that there is little balance. Either you're fine, or you're completely screwed, and because of how the dice work it is extremely random. It is inevitable that you'll get that one game every once and a while where you lose because you fail a leadership test. A more balanced system would still hurt you, but give the opportunity for a skilled player to mitigate the damage done by the failed test.
I suppose you're right. Paladins with the ability to choose to pass/fail would probably help and make a lot of fluff sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLink
I figured it's because Grey Knights fight dirty as they're supposed to be outclassed all the time. I think it's the first combat test of the paladins to deliver the killing blow on four heralds without armor or weapons. You don't do that in an open fight, you do that by setting traps. ATSKNF is kind of a 'if I stay here I will die like a dumbass, but if I fall back I can drop that building on this guy.'
Im not sure why they would need to be fearless. They are LD 9 and normally with a character. Why would you think that they would be fearless ?
Well, there's the entire Deathwing...Quote:
Originally Posted by asteroidjawa
Deathwing are fearless mainly because they are trained to be immune to the supposed "Lies" they will hear when hunting down the Fallen, at least that's how I understand it.
All Grey Knights used to be Fearless. Their fluff repeatedly states that they don't run and always fight to the last, and they're the biggest baddest soldiers in the entire galaxy who fight the scariest things in the galaxy on a regular basis and win, so from a fluff perspective any time I see Grey Knights run, especially off the board, I want to bang my head against the wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by mullinstron
Leadership 9 is not very good in CC. ATSKNF kinda sorta makes up for it, but running in the first place is the problem. It works for Space Marines, especially with Combat Tactics, but for Grey Knights it just doesn't fit.
No Retreat is a good balance for Fearless. I do think it's silly that non-Fearless models never take No Retreat wounds, but for small, elite armies Fearless is a good thing. Normal SMs aren't so small and elite that they need Fearless, ATSKNF works better for them, but for armies like Grey Knights and Deathwing Fearless is better than ATSKNF.
Fearless fits the fluff better, and lack of Fearless is a big weakness for Grey Knights. I would gladly trade the few genuinely broken things in the GK codex (rad/psykotroke grenades and 5pt psybolt ammo on Dreadnoughts) for Fearless on all Grey Knights. It fits the fluff better and that tradeoff would make the codex more balanced.
Edit:
I did just have the idea of giving Grand Masters the autopass/fail leadership test thing. Currently, there's little reason to take a Brother Captain, he's just to similar to the Grand Master and the Grand Master is well worth the extra 25pts. So if you bumped up the GM a few points and gave his squad auto-pass/fail, dropped the Brother Captain to two wounds and gave him the Grand Strategy, then you would have a good reason to pick one over the other while keeping both balanced.
I think it's reasonable. Probably more to balance than stories, but if all GK's aren't fearless I'm not sure why these ones would be. All Grey Knights know way too well how difficult their fight is, based on whom they are meant to battle and their foes' relative immortality.
I learned about the the turn 1 threat range of a PBS. Even with reinforced Aegis, they got it off, my whole draigowing squad ran off the table turn 1.
On a side note does the paladins regular aegis stack with the dreads reinforced aegis?
I think the only reason they are not fearless is to provide some semblance of balance to the game. I guess they could of just boosted the point cost a bit and then given them fearless.
In any event outside of PBS abilities I would generally prefer ATSKNF to fearless.
Read the rule for Reinforced Aegis. It explains it there. "...Leadership penalties caused by the Aegis are increased to a -4..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Psybilliah