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[url]http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4265[/url]
Fantasy Flight have announced version 2.0 for Dark Heresy!
I'm a big fan of DH1, so eagerly paid my £13 for beta rules
Wow
Its the same but not at all. A lot of changes.
Also FF are probably glad they released it as a beta. The feedback on the feedback forum is largely negative.
Anyone one else downloaded? Thoughts?
No but I'm glad I saw this, as was considering getting it, so I'll wait for v2.0.
btw you seen the dark heresy roleplay on youtube featuring TB?
Aye, i've been watchign that. Reminds me a lot of our group
:D sounds awesome, btw your inbox is full.
Summing up how bad these rules seem someone on the FF forums has pointed out
Cloth robes, like priest robes are Armour 3 in the chest. A bolter has a pen value....of 2. So a bolter can't even penetrate the intense armour that is a cloth robe.
A melta gun, power weapon or plasma gun is only Pen 3!
oh dear, someone dropped the ball there...
They've massivly expanded vehicles so you can do vehicle driving and combat
A Chimera is rarity of -70 and has armour 16 front and sides, and 10 at back
A standard civilian car is rarity -10 and is Armour 30 in the front.
A motorbike is AV10 all round
So a Chimera, first choice for guardsmen is half the armour of a civvy car, and the same rear armour as a motorbike....
Apparently the vehicle stats was a mistake in the beta rules that is being fixed.
Personally my group are enjoying the new rules, character creation has a lot of good options and is more flexible, the skill system is presented more clearly (plus finally opposed dodge tests) and there are expanded investigation rules which is a big bonus for a game where it's a big part of every adventure.
My only concern at the moment is some of the combat stuff, although some people on the FFG forums are doing some good mathhammering showing that it's actually pretty balanced. I think the main thing seems to be the disconnect between the internal balance and what you'd expect stuff to do from the fluff, which hopefully they can sort out.
Reading over the combat, it's really kinda bitzy - how the action points are used with each weapon's rate of attack/fire, the new wounds system, etc. I've read it three times & can't wrap my brain around it. It seems they've made character creation easier but actual combat resolution much more difficult in trying to make it 'balanced'. I'll make some characters & see how it runs but so far i think they strayed too far off the path that other games were going. I saw DH 2.0 being a collection of all the improvements/changes that were made with the other three 40K RPGs. Personally, I thought that DH 2.0 was really going to be generic 40K RPG that could be applied to all four settings. Make things obsolete is a bad thing - improving is good.
I really liked the new rules. I did some comparison combats under each system and it played much better. There were some significant errors in the original PDF - all the weapon and armour values were redone and it works pretty well now. You need to check the updates to get a real feel for it.
Unfortunately there was a lot of edition griping and FFG have just announced that they're making it backwards compatible with Only War. Educated guess it's going to be Only War with new character types and investigation mechanics bolted in.
FFG have just killed my interest in the new edition. They had a really nice system with a clean slate, and once again the loud and negative have got their way. Half the complaints were variants on "I don't want change". And given the number of arguments I had over there about things where the critic plainly hadn't understood the rule or demonstrably hadn't even played the new rules I'm less than impressed with the reversal. They also now have a couple of months to rush together what will essentially be an Only War clone with a few extra narrative rules.
There are always complaints. That doesn't mean that the complainers know better than the professional game developers.
I played the new beta in detail. It worked.
The action points worked well in practice and once you got your head around them, they were simple to use. They also brought a lot more realism and flexibility to the game. With AP I saw characters moving around a lot more seeking out tactical advantages through position.Quote:
Originally Posted by darklament
The relationship between AP and rate of fire was pretty straightforward. You just multiply. Got a weapon with a RoF of 2? Spent two AP firing it at someone? That's four bullets. Got a weapon with a RoF of 1/2? (less common actually - tends to be just the big ones or sniper rifles). Then you need 4AP to get just two bullets off.
Everyone gets 4AP.
It let you put a lot more granularity into the game at no cost in extra tracking. You get shot at - want to Evade? Sure, that'll be 1AP, please. You spent them all firing everything you've got at people? Well, that'll learn you to keep some back next character. Better than juggling full and half-actions all the time, imo.
The fact that you could fine tune the AP was what led to my seeing much mire fluid combat as people would spend a little bit on movement and a little on firing or evading. You didn't have to keep track so much what someone had done - you just looked at if they had any AP left. I really liked it in practice. Combats usually went by more quickly in my tests. In a good way.
The wound system was also at least an improvement. They'd got away from the old 'hit points' style system where you were fine, fine, fine, dead (or crippled at least).
It was a little harder to actually wound people but when you did, each wound got progressively worse than the last one. Basically you add +5 to the wound result for every pre-existing wound (+10 for criticals). The starting wound result is based on the amount of damage you take. So you still have hit points of a kind, but they don't feel like hit points so much. So you still have the problem you had in the old rules where you could get hit by a plasma pistol and then be killed by someone hitting you with a stick the next round, but at least now instead of it being "I ignore the plasma bolt with no ill-effects omg-a-stick-my-head-explodes" it becomes "I can't use my left arm because of the burns from that plasma bolt I guess this stick around the head I just wasn't able to defend myself against like I would normally". It's easier for a GM to spin anyway.
The weak area was giant monsters, greater daemons or what-have-you. The new system made a whittling down approach not really feasible. It became run around frantically trying to outmanoeuvre it whilst hoping to score a few real hits with it going fine, blooded, wounded and pissed, dead. I don't know that that's a bad thing or not but slow whittling down if BBEG wasn't something the game could handle, it became stay alive long enough to score a few critical hits. (good luck, btw. There's a plaguebearer in the rules and to DH2 starter level characters it is terrifying.)
I can't hepl but feel the beta would have worked better as its own rules, its own system. but as a successor to Dark heresy it was too much of a change for people to get round
I've nevr played Only War so odn't know much about it. But it seems highly regarded so will see how it goes. maybe I'll run my new campaign on 2.0 instead of 1 after all
New beta is out. Very much the same as only war, which isn't too bad (only war is a solid game after all) but sadly feels like a bit of a missed opportunity.
At least they've kept the character gen from the original beta which was well put together.
You wasted £13 on a beta set of rules, which are by your own defenition are broken?Quote:
Originally Posted by DrLove42
Are you insane?
Now I remember why I like Paizo more then any other RPG game company, at least their playtest rules where free to download, and looked damned good too!
It's not wasted money if you expect the final game to be worth purchasing. The payment for the Beta counts for the payment for the final product as well. When it's finally released you get they'll send you your coupon for the release version. At least check your facts before calling someone insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Richardson
Though of course the principle works on one guessing that the final will be to your liking, so it's a gamble. Unfortunately in my case (I bought also), what was an extremely promising beta has been gutted in response to an outpouring of criticism from those who want it to be the same as the existing system. Passing into outright vitriol in many cases, in fact. I'm in pretty much in agreement with navi here - it's a tragic missed opportunity, imo. I REALLY liked the original beta. I actually created sample characters at first and fifth rank and ran test combats and believe me - the new approach was a lot faster and more fluid. Gorgeous in comparison. FFG, imo, made the mistake of listening to the loudest. They through away huge chunks of their work and have something that is effectively Only War with an investigation system bolted on the side. They should have stuck to their guns.
Sorry, I didn't know of their coupon deal, I don't use their site or own any of their products, I was only going by companies methods of BETA'ing that I HAVE used and know of, like Paizo, so once again sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude, it was meant in a jokey sort of way, perhaps I should have used a smiley face at the end of that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by knas ser
No worries. Sorry if I came across as shouty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Richardson