Eldar wave serpents are great! What now?

It's probably not enough information to talk about Eldar with just one battle against them, but I think some thoughts have occured which I think should be mentioned.

The serpents are really hard to kill, and can put out a decent amount of fire power. I would say it's easily the bst trasport in the game. With 2 necron transports as contenders. However the serpent has greater range and fire power over the barge and even railguns have a hard time dealing with a serpent due to greater cover and pen downgrades.

The problem I saw is this. You can't win with serpents alone. Well you can, but against a competetive build you will have issues. If you fire every thing you are very vulnerable, if you are too close you can be charge and assaulted to death. If you are too far you have to drop your shielding which makes you now vulnerable.

The best range is scatter/ s cannon range, and staying with that. However 3 s cannon shots is not enough to deal with +2 armour. One serpent is almost enough to kill 1 terminator. Also doing the math the most you can possibly run is 9.

The problem I saw with my game was I had enough fire power to down two a turn, while the return fire wasn't really all that devestating. Lack of ap is real hurtful.

Which means you need actual durable units to carry the day. If instead of fire dragons and dire avengers the eldar player had wraith guard I can see the game going the other way.

5 wraith guard is around 160 points and with a serpent it's hitting you for 300 points a pop. If you spam you can get 5 units for 1500 only leaving 350 for hq and heavy support. I will than say proably 2-3 units would be something. I'm a fan for a unit of d-sythes as well. You can easily drop off you army in front of the other player in turn 1. The problem is you will not be able to assault. Which means you need durable assault units.

Fortantely for you you can take a phonix lord and take him with the wraith guard. That will deter assaults into the unit and also give you a melee option.

You can use fire dragons, but being toughness 3 makes them rather easy to kill compared to a toughness of 6.

I think bikes wouldn't be a bad ideal since they can soft rend and not an easy kill, especially if a warlock gives them conceal.

I think cover denial is what is going to win games for eldar. If I had an aegis defense line it would had been even worst for the eldar player. Cover save denial and high ap weapons are needed to get the job down.

Also the deathspinner is rather good. I would reconmend at least two. Also I am not a fan of a wraithknight, but it comes off as an ideal overall heavy support. Not a fan of the Sun Knight configuration, but I can see it's use.

It's a game of weight of fire whether to pop the shield-shot or not.

Also, you cannot drop off your army in front of the other player in turn 1. A transport can only move up to 6" and have its embarked squad dismount. Rushing across the board, taking your licks in his next shooting phase, and then dropping off your Wraithguard can work.

Fire Dragons are, indeed, easier to kill than Wraithguard. That's why they cost a helluva lot less.

It sounds like your opponent was putting way too much faith into rolling 6s to get that AP2 instead of investing in guaranteed good AP. Eldar have access to a lot of low-AP weapons, and with the points rebalancing in 6th Ed there's no excuse not to throw some into your army.

Like any one-trick pony, that trick only works until it doesn't. Spamming Wave Serpents is great against infantry and light vehicles. When some heavier vehicles shows up, that list is going to take a lot more brains (and some antitank weapons) to play.

I meant in turn one you can serpent in front of your enemies face. It's doubtful your serpents will explode so when they are wreaked you now have los blocking cover and now out the vehicle is what I meant to say. The following turn you can shoot back.

Actually with two fire prisms I think he could had dealt with heavier vehicles. His problem was dealing with cover saves and heavy infantry units, and MC's. Gtg negated his rending completly, which also negated his prisms large blast and the barrage shots from his deathspinner. Cover saves really did carry the day, and the abiltiy to shoot back at normal balastic skill like imperial guard.

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Originally Posted by chicop76

I meant in turn one you can serpent in front of your enemies face. It's doubtful your serpents will explode so when they are wreaked you now have los blocking cover and now out the vehicle is what I meant to say. The following turn you can shoot back.

Actually with two fire prisms I think he could had dealt with heavier vehicles. His problem was dealing with cover saves and heavy infantry units, and MC's. Gtg negated his rending completly, which also negated his prisms large blast and the barrage shots from his deathspinner. Cover saves really did carry the day, and the abiltiy to shoot back at normal balastic skill like imperial guard.

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i ran a 3 wave serpent list in a tourney this sat and came in second 2 wins and a draw. they did fantastic.. 2 with wraith guards with bright lances 1 with fire dragons scatter lasers (might take the dragon out and do warp spiders.. not sure now)

the answer to your vehicle issue is war walkers.. scatter/ bright lance combo worked like a dream

Yep, WW´s (Scatter/Bright) is awesome! In the 5th i used to run Scatter/Scatter -versions, but now (although, more expensive) they have Battle Focus, Invl. save and BS4. Outflanking WW´s are just the thing to make your mechanized army opponent shed tears...or any opponent really...heavy slot is just too full, with Wraithknight and Fire Prism being good contenders...One solution is to take whatshisname from IA11 and run with 4 heavy choices...hmmm...3 x 3 WW´s plus a Wraithknight or a Fire Prism...should i try it tomorrow against Space Wolves?

pretty much all of the grav tanks are winners this edition, i have an upcomign tourny and plan to run 4x wave serpents with 5 dire avengers each in them 1 fire prism, 1 falcon a wraithknight and a solitarch alongside a crimson hunter exarch and a regular crimson hunter. everythign is fast, keep at least 24 incheas from units if possible and mass amoutns of str 6 shots from serpents. the pulse laser is underrated on the falcon with 2 str 8 ap2 likely twin linked due to a scatter laser, and then the versitility of a prism... and btw i put holo fields on everything fort that nice 4+ jink all around

The problem I see with the serpent is you can only run so many. Also when faced against an army with a decent amount of anti tank that can glance death 2-3 serpents a turn you have issues. Which means by turn 3 you will have no serpents.

It's posible due to armies are gearing up more for range than close combat, unless you play daemons. Anyway the serpent is good, but how you plan to win is what I should be asking.

Dire Avenger span is not that effective as a unit of 5. The enemy stardard weapons are either wounding on 2s-4s. Vs Grey Knights and Tau you can easily lose your guys, against most armies they will wound on 3s which will still hurt the avengers, or guard on 4s, but sheer volume become an issue.

The dire/ serpent spam turns into an issue you have to be very selective about how your guys get out. If a vehicle is glanced death it will be hard to shoot the unit due to los. The problem I see however is that you stuck. It' not a problem with armies like Tau since they can simply smart missile you to death or lob riptide barrage at said units. Guard, Eldar, and Nids I have seen run a decent amount of barrage weapons which makes that tactic null an void. Than you have to make sure you jump out in cover, which isn't guareented when you have a ton of wounds on you due to low tougness.

With those 5 serpents you are only running 25 dire avengers. 25 dire avengers is not that hard to kill off.

You can simply sit back at 60" and serpent shield the enemy to death, but it's not enough fire power to actually win a game. Also if the other side have 60+" weapons they can also now be able to kill your now vulnurable vehicles. It still is a solid tactic since most armies are stuck within 24"-36" range.

Since you want to win games and use all your fire power you want to be within 24" so you can shoot 7 tmes with strength 6 twin linked shots. The problem with this is you getting hit back as well. You proably can stay at this range and out shoot a couple of armies Tau, Necrons, and Grey Knights for example will beat you out with this tactic, due to durabiliy and can dish out the same or more fire power.

Closing to in the enemy's face is a really bad move. All marines have krak grenades for starters. The serpents are very vulnerable to melee units and crack like and egg that's fallen on a side walk.

Now let's look at what differant missions are out there.

1. Victory points: you will do poorly in this. I think first blood is easy for you. The issue is if you glance death a serpent you are giving up 2 kill points. Move shoot run is helpful with fleet which can allow you to pop out behind a transport and hide behin it again, similar to what crisis suits do. The problem however is the avengers are not really putting out that much fire power themselves. Not saying you can't will kps with serpent spam. Just saying it's going to be harder for you to win KPs than with most other armies.

2. Relic: this tends to be worst than victory points. 3+" to run does come in handy here. The problem here is typically you don't have a unit that can weather hit's and quick enough to bring it back to the other side. Daemons I learn excell in this. Flesh hounds prety much start the game on the objective and daemonettes with invisibility, or +3 invulnerable save can grab it move 12" a turn and can easily keep it out of reach. Banshees can do so as well, but who runs with them. The porblem here is you try to avoid combat range with your serpents and this scenrio forces you to get in close. I think you will fare even worst in this scenerio than with #1.

#'s 3-4. Either big guns or the fast attack one. Big guns really help out especally if you picked up a wraithknight depending on objectve placement I think with big guns you should do really well. All you have to do is prevent models from taking too many objectives and you can easily contest in turn 5. You can sit back and focus fire at units that have the mobility to get to an objective. With the Fast attack one depending on objective placement you can do equally well or maybe better. Fast attack is s usually not maxed out or hardly taken. You can get points against armies like tau who maxes their fast attack options usually. I will say this is mostly what you want.

5. The will one will be hard. Since it means you want to leave one guy back to cover one objective and you want to frce your way to the enemies. I typically hate this one since it is easy to tie in this one. You have the mobility advantage, but lack penatration. Basically 10 paladins, and draigo with feel no pain can march to your objective and sit there daring you to get close so they can bash your serpent into dust. I still think you can easily tie games like this though. Winning is possible, but you probably have to use tactics to prevent line breaker and contest both objectives and getline breaker your self. Also you can simply let them come in your deployment. Dash to the other side and take theirs and than send a few serpents to contest the one you just left, so you can win. This scenerio is like inbetween the 4 I mention.

6. Just objectives this should help you out. A lot depending on objective placement.

My point is 3 out of 3 missions you should do well in, but if like say you have 3 objectives and 2 is in the enemy's deployment zone than what now.


I'm just saying what I noticed is that Eldar needs more penatration. If you going against mechguard I can see you doing ok. Mechguard is probably sporting double the number of vehicles you are fielding, but if faced against foot guard with 3 vendettas you have problems. The amount of las/ auto/ missile shots will cause you to be glanced death. Personally you wouodn't be able to deal with them if you have to go in their deployment.

Wave Serpents, what now?
This being Games Workshop, "Let's make them Mail Order only, starting in July..."

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Originally Posted by Pssyche

Wave Serpents, what now?
This being Games Workshop, "Let's make them Mail Order only, starting in July..."

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Or make them exclusive as forge world models. Wait they didthat already for about 10 years. Reason why I never bough any and use my falcon as a serpent so I didn't have to spend 100 dollars overall for a kit.

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Originally Posted by chicop76

I'm just saying what I noticed is that Eldar needs more penatration. If you going against mechguard I can see you doing ok. Mechguard is probably sporting double the number of vehicles you are fielding, but if faced against foot guard with 3 vendettas you have problems. The amount of las/ auto/ missile shots will cause you to be glanced death. Personally you wouodn't be able to deal with them if you have to go in their deployment.

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I really don't see how serpents get glanced to death as quick you mention. 3 Vendettas will put 2.25 hull points on a wave serpent.

9 lascannon shots
4.5 hits
2.25 tl hits
6.75 total hits
4.5 glances/pens (i'm assuming all pens get turned into glances)
2.25 glances after jink (4+ holofield jink)



The main benefit of the wave serpent is it's utility. Not only is it an amazing battletank that puts out a completely abusrd amount of firepower... but it's got the benefit of being a transport and a fast skimmer. Fast skimmer means a potential 30' move with flat-out, which comes with a 3+ jink save. I want to take eldrad for his warlord trait so I can flat-out 30' use the trait in my opponents shooting phase to give my tanks a 2+ coversave, and then turn any penetrates into glances. And it can tank shock.

I have grand plans to turbo boost into my opponents deployment against guard. Vendettas don't scare me.

I would really like to hear of a list that can glance down 2-3 serpents/turn. With holofields, it takes 36 krak missile shots at BS4 to glance down two wave serpents with holofields (assuming jink and all pens get downgraded). Thirty-six.

Necron gauss could do it potentially (my math says 27 rapid firing warriors to glance down a single waveserpent in a turn, in rapid fire range so maybe not).

Converserly...i've just done the math on 3 wave serpents firing back at vendettas. They strip 2.09 HP's from them per turn (assuming jink), and cause 0.68 penetrations. So yeah....wave-serpents almost outshoot vendettas.

This is a scatterlaser/shuricannon loadout, firing the shield the average 4.5 times which ignore jink.

I wasn't being funny about Wave Serpents going Mail Order only.

This from Faeit 212 (Link)
[url]http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/wave-serpent-moving-to-direct-only.html[/url]

I got a few gravtanks recently , a well painted fire prism, a falcon and a serpent off ebay for $90, there wer enot so well painted ones for even cheaper, if gw makes them exlusive to their site then I would just go to the aftermarket. I want 2 mroe serpents at least and plan to buy them from my local gamiing store to paint myself following the same color scheme of these 3 that I bought and am workign to repaint my other grave tanks to, I hope it isn't true as i hate strippign models, but the price difference makes it worth it over gw pricing

wave serpents are a vast improvement on last codex, but think ppl are overestimating their usefulness, most MEQ units can still close assault them to death ... and st3 troops are usually filler... and in 6th ... if you cant see it you cant shoot it, so sensible opponents facing serpentspam [wave serpent wave ?] .. will just hide !

by the time youve put holofields and the previously mentioned kitchen sink on the serpents they still pan out at 45pts + a shot, and will still go down to the odd lucky critical hit or any st4 close assault

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Originally Posted by Dave Mcturk

wave serpents are a vast improvement on last codex, but think ppl are overestimating their usefulness, most MEQ units can still close assault them to death ... and st3 troops are usually filler... and in 6th ... if you cant see it you cant shoot it, so sensible opponents facing serpentspam [wave serpent wave ?] .. will just hide !

by the time youve put holofields and the previously mentioned kitchen sink on the serpents they still pan out at 45pts + a shot, and will still go down to the odd lucky critical hit or any st4 close assault

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I agree, but disagree. It's not easy to ssaul them if you really use them to the max. Heavy wave serpent armies tend to go for turn 5 contest and quick win, which Eldar pulls off rather well.

It's rather easy to stay outside of assault range, unless you're going against blood angels, or dark angels.

The issue is how many units the other side have that have really good assault manurvability. Like one fleshhund squad can be easily blasted away, 2 I have to do the math to see if Eldar can do that, I know my Tau can blast away two full squads. Even so I would probably be able to split my squads in two, or have one squad hit a serpent with them. Slaanech Seekers are differant which I would multi assault with them in a heart beat.

That's why I say now what. If you assault them are the units inside are actually threating, or a very easy second kill. Thinking about it more and playing against Eldar I think more variety is really needed instead of usingserpent spam to carry the day.