Who benefits from Customied Models?

For the first time in my life I found I was slightly interested in Warmachine and Hordes... not because I am abandoning GW, but because FamilyofGamers777 is giving some sets away (and I'm probably going to win). I learned that Warmahordes does not allow for their models to be modified, and there are no options to really customize your guys. Malifaux also does not allow their models to be modified. What benefit does a gaming systems gain from standard model-sculpts?





Question the first:

Does it level the hyper competitive playing field? Does it make drawing line of sight more fair?

Question the second:

Do you think that 40k's openness with customized models creates more profits for GW? More headaches for gamers?







I've always believed that when GW releases a model and everyone agrees that it looks god-awful, deep down everyone at GW knows it too. But GW folks also know that people are going to buy, cut it up, buy some other models, cut them up, glue it all together and make a model that looks ten times better. Customizing models fulfills those of us that want each model to be a 'special little snowflake' but it also slows down that process of finishing an army. If I could finish my army quickly, then I'd start another one. Perhaps the infinite possibilities of customizing restricts GW ability to make profits.

Perhaps the new strategy with AoS is:
1)Restrict Customization
2)
3)Profits!

I'm like you, one thing that really puts me off other games like Warmachine is the lack of conversion opportunity. That said, Warmachine doesn't completely ban conversions - it's just that, for competitive play, you have to follow PP's rather restrictive guidelines.

Speaking for Warmachine at least, it's not about line of sight, since the game doesn't use true line of sight anyway. The rationale, apparently, is to make it easy for your opponent to recognise what's in your army. Obviously insisting that you have to buy the official models also creates more profits - the conversion rules not only exclude third-party substitutes but also money-saving conversions (like when people stick a load of guns onto a Terminator and call it an Obliterator).

This is very much an 'eye of the beholder' question.

Converting, Scratch Building and Customs jobs have been part of GW's games since the get go. Rogue Trader of course featuring the infamous deodorant bottle and zoids parts 'hover tank'.

http://i42.tinypic.com/wk1xr5.jpg

Ork players tend towards lots of konvershuns and kustom speedstas etc, because that's a big draw of Orkses themselves - background wise, nothing is going to look like it's kontemporaries.

Yet there is a line to be drawn. And here's one of them. Basic Gorkamorka period Ork Trukk. With a massive billboard mounted on the back - as in about 3-4 inches high. For no other purposes than true line of sight blocking - the models (for there was more than one) were deployed sideways on, and moved sideways, blocking LoS to units following behind.

There's pics of up it on Dakka somewhere, but I'm not dipping into that foetid mire to find them....

Clearly, this is an extreme example, and one used for illustrative effect, rather than any pretence it's common enough to require the end of any and all conversions etc.

Trouble is, outside of that 'you've only done that because you're a WAAC goon' example, it really is down to your opponent's opinion.

For me, I look for only two things.

1. Internal consistency. If you're using customised weapons, perhaps because originals are frustratingly hard/expensive to come by (say, Combi-Gravs), then please keep all such examples consistent in appearance. Nothing more irritating as an opponent than to be told 'They all look the same, so I'll explain what's what. This is a Combi-Grav, this is a Combi-Plasma, those two Combi-Melta'. Example of practicing my own prejudice? Putting together a 'Garden of Nurgle' army for AoS, using Treemen in place of Great Unclean Ones, and Dryads in place of Plaguebearers. I'll suitably convert and paint them to make it nice and clear, but as it's a single theme, hopefully won't be too confusing to my opponent (spectators though are another concern entirely)

2. If you've scratch built, it should be a close approximation in terms of dimensions. Not considerably smaller, not considerably larger - but about right. If the model is a bit wider, but a bit shorter - fair enough. But whatever you've come up with should have a similar level of board presence.

1st Question-
No idea, couldn't speak to this so I won't even try.

2nd Question-
A headache for the players? Sure, but as long as everyone is upfront and (as Mystery said) consistent, it should lessen confusion somewhat. as to profits- I would say yes, customization does add to their profits but I would think it would be marginal at best, certainly there though. Think of it like this- you see a model that you want/need for your army (because it has cool rules or it's a "Must Have" unit) but the model itself just does not do it for you. But you think "hey, if i use this and this and these things, I can convert it to look how I think it should". so you buy the model and then get the parts you need for the conversion. Even if (as a rough example) 3/4ths of the conversion parts come from 3rd party vendors, GW still gets a sale or two that it might not have gotten in the first place. If you couldn't do conversions for some reason, then you might not have made the purchase in the first place and no extra monies to gee-dub. So yeah, it may not be a lot, but I think it definitely adds to it.

oh, and Mystery- +100 internets to you for the use of the UD Hover tank! :D

I still want to make my own someday...

As I understand it, it's far easier to make kits without options for one, so on that side of things it saves PP some headaches. From a gameplay perspective, using the issued models means every model you play is easily recognisable for what it is, because the difference between, say, various Khador Jacks or Legion Beasts are what arms and weapons they have. It's a bit like if by giving a Sergeant a Plasma Pistol and Power Maul instead of a Power Fist and Boltgun you made him into a completely different unit.

Additionally the game itself doesn't have any customisation. You can't Build Your Own Lord, you can't swap weapon loadouts on leaders nor change spells without changing to a different character. There's no vehicles at all so no kitbashing on that front, and other units don't get any options to upgrade or change weapons. You get what you get with HorMachine.

As far as how that affects sales? That's in the eye of the beholder. I know myself and a lot of people locally consider converting a themed forced to be part of the hobby. However, I know people who are cool with things out of the box, and generally won't go into much hobby detail with building or painting at all.

I personally struggle with games like HorMachine for that exact reason, though. They're not my army. I throw down Khador force and someone else will probably have the same force lead by the same bland Mary Sue Steampunk Wizard with the same units because they're designed to combo off each other, and they'll have the same weapons in the same poses...

I mean, at least if I throw down my Gue'vesa, I know I'm not going to see another player with those anywhere local, and if I ever bring them to Warhammer World and meet another filthy heretic, it'll be a great talking point and we can share ideas for conversions, etc. As far as HorMachine, most discussion I've seen in-store is purely about the game, which is fine, but not for me. I mean I even have a Savlar Chem Dogs Kill Team, which are made of everything from Empire Archer bodies, to Victoria Minis weapons and gas mask heads, with a thorough raiding of my bitz box for stolen weapons, armour plates and loot from everything from the Death Korps to Elysians. I couldn't do that with HorMachine, but it's incredibly satisfying to build your army from the models up.

Let's first make some clarifications:

Warmachine does allow for conversions of models in their games.

They actually have some pretty clear rules for exactly how you customize them for tournaments (basically, the TO can approve anything- and usually does if it is obvious what the mini represents. But he's not allowed to disapprove a conversion that is based on the model in question and has all of the right weapons). You can even use parts from other manufacturers.

The very strict rule is that a converted mini MUST be on the correct size base- because base size is part of a model's statline.

In fact, Privateer Press has a Bitz order service through their website where you can get just the parts you want (like GW used to do way back when).

Malifaux hasn't formalized their rules, but the players have the same attitude about it (correct base size above all, but conversions are fun and exciting).


I've seen some pretty extensively converted forces (that were approved by PP at their own tournaments). For example- there was a guy who made a whole Cygnar force consisting of nothing but Gobbers (that was pretty awesome). Also, I've seen quite a few Pirate crews that had a lot more mixed races than the PP standard minis.

I have a friend who has converted his Cryx to include dead characters from other factions. His Bane Lord Orsus is pretty awesome, and his Deathjack is an undead Karchev the Terrible. He's taken them to conventions where PP runs events, and they have 100% approve of his conversions.

I have mercenaries who look very bodged together- all of the warjacks have some parts from other 'jacks mixed in. In fact, my Mangler has his arm cut off- he's holding it with his other arm so he can beat his foes to death with it.

I guess pics or it didn't happen, right?

Attachment 15237


There are loads of opportunities to convert. I think the biggest reasons it is done less in Warmachine are:

1- PP doesn't have a history of releasing rules for models they don't intend to ever make (converting your whole army is part of GW culture, because GW wasn't necessarily ever going to get around to making those minis).
2- PP kits don't give you all that many extra bits. Honestly, the stuff I can pull out of my GW bits box is astounding. Really, I've got a whole Space Crusade set I pulled out of there.