2k point BA list for Wargamescon - need C&C!

Here's what I've been able to come up with so far for what I'm bringing to Wargamescon in June, just gotta buy it, assemble and paint and I'll be set!

HQ:
Commander Dante - 225 points (stock)

Elite:
Sanguinary Guard - 230 points (chapter banner)
Sanguinary Priests - 100 points (stock)

Troops:
Three Tactical Squads - 270 points (stock)
Three Assault Squads - 300 points (stock)

Transports:
Land Raider Crusader - 250 points (stock)

Fast Attack:
3x Baal Predator - 345 points (stock)

Heavy Support:
2x Predators - 230 points (twin-linked lascannons)

total - 1950 points

Any improvements on this list would be greatly appreciated, as I'm looking to buy this fairly soon.

I guess I'm not 100% sure what "Stock" means for starters. I'm guessing that the assault squads are 10-men with 2x meltaguns and a sergeant with a power-something? As per the tactical squads I have no idea what special weapons "stock" entails.

Those preds are TwL Las/Heavy Bolter? I'd definitely recommend taking them as Auto/Sponson Las especially since BA Preds are fast.

I'd also try to get Extra Armour on that LRC. I'm not a fan of LR's (you don't even have a hammer to put in it in this list) but if you must take one you gotta give it the upgrades it needs to give it some chance of being worth it.

That said, I love the MEQ spam. I love the AV13 spam. It's looking good IMO.

I think I can shed some light on your questions, Black. It looks to me like he's taken three 5-man Tactical squads on their own at 90 points a pop (270 total) and three 5-man Assault Squads on their own (300 total). That's the only way the math works out for me.

So now onto critiquing the list itself. Sorry, Mike, but this list has some serious deficiencies, not to mention it's illegal. Commander Dante makes Sanguinary Guard into Troops choices instead of Elites, therefore this list has 7 Troops choices. Beyond that, those 5-man squads are completely dead weight, what's worse they're actively hampering you by soaking up valuable points while giving you nothing in return. Except for the squad in the Land Raider, they're completely free kill points on a silver platter. BA Assault Squads are one of the most versatile troops choices out there, and you need to take full advantage of them. Tactical Squads, contrary to popular belief, aren't bad either, but they fulfill different roles.

First, Assault Marines. There are two primary ways to run them, with Jump Packs and without. JP squads are 10-man squads with two special weapons and a power weapon on the Sergeant, like Blackarmchair said. To answer your first question, yes they need to be 10-man squads if they're on foot. 5-man squads simply do not have the durability to hold up at 2000 points, and a ten-man squad lets you take 2 special weapons and combat-squad if need be. A common use of combat squadding for these guys is to send 3 meatshields and 2 meltaguns on a suicide-deep strike on an enemy vehicle target, while dropping the Sgt and the remaining 4 meatshields back on your own lines to camp an objective. Alternatively, you can combat-squad and deep strike the two squads with one meltagun each so that they can shoot two different targets when they land. A golden rule is, however, that you should deep strike if you combat squad, again because 5-man squads are not durable targets. However, just because you're deep striking doesn't mean you should combat squad. You might want to drop a 10-man squad behind enemy lines to present a flanking threat to your squads advancing up the board from your side.

What everyone views as the "Stock" BA Assault squad on foot is 10 guys with jump packs, 2 meltaguns, and a power fist on the Sergeant. The reason this is the standard loadout is because, well, it works. Like I said, 10 guys are needed for durability when hoofing it. 2 Meltaguns in a squad isn't something most armies get to do, and you get a lot of use out of that. You'll see sometimes a squad with a pair of Flamers instead, and these aren't bad either, just understand that they have more limited application. Anything with a 3+ save is going to shrug these off, but 'Nids and the occasional Wych squad that you catch out in the open will pop and squish. But that's a role better suited to other elements of the army. Don't take Plasma Guns, ever. No really, don't. I love plasma guns, especially when there's plentiful FnP to be had, but the obvious problem with them is that you cannot assault after firing them. Jump Infantry, sadly, are not Relentless, and if you get up in melta/flamer range, you're generally wanting to assault whatever you're shooting at. Jump Infantry also want to stay mobile, as that's their biggest advantage. Plasmas defeat both of these purposes by being Rapid Fire. Power fist on the Sergeant is a way for the squad to lay on constant wounds in assault, as well as have a fighting chance against walkers.

The other big way to run ASM squads is in transports. Remove their jump packs for a 35-point discount on transports, and you can get a 5-man squad with a meltagun in a heavy flamer Razorback for 130 points. Dozer Blades help BA vehicles more than normal marines because of the Fast type. You want to be able to zip these guys around for late-game objective grabs, and the meltagun is there to prevent your opponent from contesting on you with their own fast vehicles. Or take that 5-man Meltagun squad and give them a 215-point Land Raider. This is the basis for how some BA players spam 4-6 Land Raiders. Ultimately, how you run your Assault Squads is how you want to play your list. That said, if you're taking a squad of Sanguinary Guard, I strongly advise you to grab one 10-man ASM squad with 2 meltas and a fist, and give a jump pack to one of your Priests. Sanguinary Guard are a great CC unit, but their biggest downside is their lack of an invuln save. To counter this, you need more bodies to run alongside them. As awesome as they are, you need to use SG squads in a very conservative, tactical manner. Throw your ASM squads against squads of enemy troops and use the SG against high value targets. Or throw both the ASM and the SG at the same target to overwhelm your opponent with numbers. Remember, nobody ever won an assault by giving their opponent a fair fight. If you're launching the assault, make sure you weight the odds in your favor.

Even if you don't take a squad of ASM with jump packs, you need a Priest to get a jump pack so he can hang out with the Sanguinary Guard.

Okay, with that out of the way, let's go to Tactical Squads. These are sort of a redheaded step child, because they're just not as mobile as their jump pack cousins. First off, if you're looking for minimal-points scoring units, 5-man ASM squads in a Razorback are better, and 5-man Scout squads with camo cloaks are better. Tactical squads are not going to give you cheaper troops that are worth their points. That said, you are going to get some use of them with 10 boys in a Rhino with a special/heavy weapon. Plasma/Lascannon is a good mix, or there's always the flamer/missile launcher budget option. The classic melta/multi-melta is a great standby. Just remember your transports are 35 points more expensive here, and that could give you headaches when sorting this out. You can run them on foot, but I've never done this so I can't speak to their effectiveness with any credibility.

My that's quite a wall of text. Ok, summary time - the biggest point to take away from this is 5 man Marine squads with no upgrades are dead weight. Don't take them! You need, need, NEED to have your troops pull their weight, especially when going to a major GT like WarGamesCon. I hope this helps.

I'm sorry about the overkill on the troop choices, I'm still real green at the game, being a player of only 30 days total. Maybe this list would work better instead:

HQ:
Mephiston - 250pts
Librarian w/FoD, Sword - 125pts

Elites:
Priest w/ Jump pack - 75pts
Furioso Dreadnaught w/Magna-grapple - 140pts

Troops:
2x 10 man assault squads w/ 2x melta guns and a power fist on the Sarge - 235pts
5 man scout squad w/3 sniper rifles, 1 missile launcher and a combimelta on Sarge - 95pts

Troops in Transports:
5 man assault squad in a Razorback w/twin-linked lascannons - 155pts
5 man assault squad in a Razorback w/twin-linked assault cannon - 155pts

Fast Attack:
2x 2 man attack bike squad w/ multimelta - 200pts

Heavy Support:
Stormraven Gunship w/meltas, lascannon, and extra armor - 215pts
Predator Tank w/twin-linked lascannon and lascannon side sponsons - 180pts

Total - 1,930 points

If this list doesn't work out better or there's something wrong with it, please let me know!

Well that's quite a drastic shift from your previous list, but I think this one has fewer holes overall.

Biggest problem I see straight away is that you're spending too much on the Predator. Drop the TLLC turret back to the autocannon. For the 45 points you're spending, you don't get that much more firepower. A 135-point autocannon/lascannon Predator can do its job perfectly fine. Second-biggest thing is your choice of Librarian powers. Because you've only got two ASM squads, you need to make 'em work for you. I'd consider Unleash Rage to be a must here, probably instead of Sanguine Sword. Librarians are squishy, and the longer you can keep them out of base contact, the better.

So this leaves us with 115 points to spend, and a few ways to go. The most obvious solution is to take a naked Baal Predator and call it a day, but I'm not so convinced of that. Thing is, you kinda threw a Stormraven into a list with only 4 vehicles in total (5 if you count the Dread, but we're assuming you deploy with the dreadnought inside the Stormraven), which gives your opponent easy target priority. That bird is gonna take the brunt of the enemy long-range shooting while it delivers its payload, and I'm not sure it can survive that. Extra Armor is definitely a must here, so I'm glad you took that. The upside is once it drops off its cargo, it's not viewed as a big threat anymore, the damage has been done. Bottom line is that the Stormraven needs to survive 1-2 turns of enemy fire to get where it needs to go, and this might not always be possible.

Now, we've got two solutions to this problem. The first is to increase vehicle saturation, make that decision to shoot antivehicle fire at the Stormraven that much of a harder choice. The Attack Bikes do somewhat provide this, but the first guns to shoot at them will be anti-infantry, so as to save the anti-vehicle guns for the 'Raven. So an easy solution for more vehicle saturation is Land Speeders. Sending these guys with multi-meltas zipping across the field along with the Stormraven could make your opponent question where to shoot. The most common way to run these puppies you'll see is with a multi-melta and heavy flamer, running you 70 points a pop. If you drop one Razorback weapon upgrade, you can afford 2 of these to put together in a squadron, and now your opponent faces a Stormraven, two Land Speeders, and four Attack Bikes bum-rushing him turn 1, all with the capability to put some serious hurt in his face. He'll want to spread his infantry out to bubble-wrap the vehicles and avoid taking heavy damage from the flamers, but he'll know that doing so will make it easier for the dread to get to him.

The other solution is to, of course, drop the Stormraven and subsequently the Furioso. You don't have to drop the dreadnought, but the problem is he'll need a ride and the only other way in for him is in a drop pod. I've had some success with this, but it's hard to do and depends on quite a bit of luck. You also might consider making him a Furioso Librarian in a pod with Blood Lance, but that's a bit pricey for my taste. Either way, I'd fill out the rest of your points with vehicles. Vindicators, Predators, Baal Predators, all of these are good and present threats for your opponent. Use any leftover points on meltaguns for the Razorback squad, camo cloaks for your Scouts, and dozer blades for vehicles. By my calculations, if you drop the dread and Stormraven, you can manage two of any of these vehicles and then upgrades.

One final note for you, about Mephiston. You might be thinking to throw him in the Stormraven with the Dreadnought. Don't do this Mephiston and a blender-dreadnought in one Stormraven will make all other threats secondary. Downing that Stormraven will suddenly always be your opponent's top priority. My advice is to run Meffy tucked away amongst your Assault Marines. Have him multi-assault alongside your squads against a high-value target. He'll get furious charge from the Priest, and there will be far fewer enemy units that can target him in close combat.

kaika has a good point with vic survivability witch brings me to what i do to mid that with the vics with the big "kill me" signs the i bring to the tabel the answer that i use: bring more than one! with your last list what i would do is drop the pred and (i am assumming that it is a 2000pt list since you stoped at 1930) witch should give you enuff pts to bring another raven (yea i sead it 2 storm ravens not just 1) then you put your assult sqd and your leaders in the 2 sep storm ravens and sweep them right into the enemy! you are playing blood angels soooooo be agressive be be agressive! secondly im not a big fan of scouts but to each his own

Here's what I would change around in the list:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikeohara

HQ:
Mephiston - 250pts
Librarian w/FoD, Sword - 125pts

I would go with rage instead of sword and shield instead of FoD

Elites:
Priest w/ Jump pack - 75pts
Furioso Dreadnaught w/Magna-grapple - 140pts

The priest needs a power weapon, but doesnt need jump packs imho, the Dread however needs extra armor and not a magna grapple. Give it talons as well

Troops:
2x 10 man assault squads w/ 2x melta guns and a power fist on the Sarge - 235pts

I've found much more success with a single 10 man jump squad w/ 2 melta and pw/ Inferus pistol sgt. They're great for DoA drop in and popping 2 support vehicles like, psyflemen or manticores etc. Since you can keep the whole squad in reserves then DoA combat squads upon release

5 man scout squad w/3 sniper rifles, 1 missile launcher and a combimelta on Sarge - 95pts

I would drop this squad and use the points to get another razorback assault squad

Troops in Transports:
5 man assault squad in a Razorback w/twin-linked lascannons - 155pts
5 man assault squad in a Razorback w/twin-linked assault cannon - 155pts

Here is where you should add in another twin linked assault cannon razorback squad. They've been invaluable in my games. Typically though, I've upgraded the 5 man squad to have a melta gun and PW sgt as well, comes out to 180pts each. I would go for 3-4 razorback squads and the 10 man jump squad. Using the Libby, you can give them all 5+ cover saves, and with judicious placement of the priest, give them FnP as well. Though, I woudl advocate another priest for flexibility.

Fast Attack:
2x 2 man attack bike squad w/ multimelta - 200pts

I think a single squad of 3 should be sufficient.

Heavy Support:
Stormraven Gunship w/meltas, lascannon, and extra armor - 215pts
Predator Tank w/twin-linked lascannon and lascannon side sponsons - 180pts

Drop the turret upgrade from the pred, and stick with the 135 pts auto/las pred. Great for taking out transports and facing off against other battle tanks, yet still cost effective, I would take 2 of them

Total - 1,930 points

If this list doesn't work out better or there's something wrong with it, please let me know!

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Good start, really my main question in this list, is why Mephiston? He seems out of place in the list. I don't think you necessarily need him, you'd do fine without him imho, and have more threat on the table.

Being that you are new to the game, and trying to figure all this out. I think you are probably having your head spinning moment right about now. 2k points against the big boys is tough.
Your first list is basicly the AV13 wall. I think its a great list for the BAs, and is an easy list to learn. If you want to run that, feel free, but you'll want to make some changes. Its also fast to paint with an airbrush, and with less than 60 days to assemble and paint, I vote for the AV13 wall.

I run a list about like this (but I'll be taking orks to WGC this year)

HQ: Libby: shield, unleash rage

Elites: 2 priests, 1 w/ pw, 1 w/ pw and jump pack

Troops: Tac Squad, LC, Plasma, Meltabomb, rhino w/ HK
Assault Squad: Jump packs, PF, 2xmelta
Assault Squad: Jump pakcs, PW, 2x melta
Assault Squad: 8 guys, PF, melta, rhino w/ HK

Fast: 2x Baal Pred ASSCAN and HB
Baal Pred w/ flamestorm cannon

Heavy: 2x AC/LC pred
Vindicator

I've also run it with only 1 jump pack squad, and podded fuiriso. That may be even faster to paint up, and it nice dropping a dread in the enemy deployment zone.


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