Printable View
I would take rank and file if there were rank and file modes that were non-humanoid. As it is so far, I have no choice but to take more elite units which I guess is still better than 40k where I had to scratchbuild or convert the kinda stuff I like. Perhaps AoS will come out with some proper rank and file sized snakemen at some point.
And people massively underestimate your basic line troops - I think it's a hangover from previous Warhammer Player's fractured psyches.Quote:
Originally Posted by grimmas
Take Nagash. Yeah, he's hard. But he's also on a massive base. Swamp him with Empire Troops who get ludicrously hard just for having numbers, even before you add in buffs, and they can quite quickly pull all his legs off and stuff them up his nostrils.
Anything being able to damage anything means basic troops can pull their weight and more, not a lot individual models can put out enough wounds or Mortal Wounds to take them out quickly.
Its also about the narrative, its a narrative game after all. I like my Moonclan Grots, they are sneaking around in a Realm where gods walk the earth, firing arrows at anything that looks like it might have some good loot. Lead by the fearsome Gasbag Gitsticker of his mighty steed Bouncing Jeff.
And The Death grand alliance actually has some of the best rank and file units (when used on mass).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mystery
Generally speaking R&F models are cheaper to buy and we've seen the repackaged get even more economical
40 Halberdiers charge Nagash, or at least wind up in combat with him. Automatic hits (no, really!), 4+ to wound, then big boy gets a 4+ save thanks to Rend -1.
And if you've got a Freeguild General? Hold The Line! Boof - +1 to hit and to Wound..... Now, granted you're very unlikely to get Nagash surrounded straight off the bat, but man. That's a lot of high quality attacks on a 3+ to wound headed his way. He's only got 16 wounds, so it doesn't take more than the teensiest bit of bad luck to see him duffed up by such lowly troops.
Now....stuff like Ironguts? Yep. Proper, proper nasty stuff. Good wounds, decent enough to hit and to wound, multiple attacks each, and a hefty 3 damage per unsaved wound? That's a different kettle of fish entirely.
But again....decent blocks of the most basic infantry can prove a thorny challenge just though their buffs.
Sure, sure, that sounds great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mystery
Except they have to get to him. Meanwhile, he can summon a few units a turn. Those units just sit down between him and the Empire soldiers, and at worst whittle down the enemy unit. At best, they rip up those soldiers before they can get close. I'd have to get my Death book at home and run through it a bit, but I'm pretty sure he can actually summon more than 40 guys in a turn. If he opts for Zombies, they can even combine into a larger unit, which will be a really nice speedbump that could turn into more than just a speedbump.
And, of course, he can complete Sudden Death before they get there, too.
WFB actually had me loving R&F troops. AoS has done more to cause me disdain for them than WFB ever did. WFB only had one issue, and that was allowing more elite units to benefit from Horde formation, which was meant to be a bit of equalizer for more basic units like Empire State Troops and Orc Boyz. In AoS, if I have a bunch of non-R&F models to field, the game actually incentivizes getting non-R&F, especially for new players.
- - - Updated - - -
I love those pretend scenarios. Because anyone with half a brain is going to do something other than sit Nagash in the back and raise multiple units each turn, providing an ARMY between him and that one unit. Oh, yeah, and that army will get to reroll 1's for hits and saves, and doesn't worry about battleshock, #becauseNagash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mystery
I'd feel bad about agreeing to use him, but since my opponent had a freaking gunline, I don't.
Heck, he could raise one unit of Hexwraiths, give them the +1 save boost, and with his command ability they could tank those Empire units. 3+ save, rerolling 1's, ignoring Rend? Yeah. Nearly had a river on the table from the tears of an opponent who was pissed his Sigmarines and large block of Dwarf elites (can't remember which ones at the moment) could barely hurt them. He's lucky they can't take a standard, because watching Black Knights keep coming back from the dead is kind of funny.
Remember - Sudden Death is only applicable if you choose to never use scenarios. All of the scenarios published except maybe one or two say to not use the victory conditions from the default scenario and use their own win conditions.
And it's an example of however the power scale simply isn't pronounced as previous game of previous Warhammers might suggest.
I certainly can't think of a time when 40 dudes with Halberds being cheered on by their boss were able to tackle Nagash?
It was doable, but then again, they were... let's see... looks like 270 points with full command, if BattleScribe is right (have to use that as my books are at home, of course). Nagash was 1000 points. In that scenario, you don't expect them to be able to take him down by themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mystery
But that you still need 40 plus a character to have a shot at him - assuming you started right up on him - means it's still pretty wide difference.
And that's fine. Heroes should feel like heroes. It should take a lot to take down the freaking GOD OF DEATH. If it was easy to do, then it'd be pretty boring and there'd be no reason to bother with heroes as they wouldn't feel heroic.
Again you're kinda missing the point.
In AoS, it's far harder to have say, the Dwarven Gunline of Mind Numbing Inevitability. You can't really Deathstar your way to victory because of how Battleshock works.
All those things add up to your bog standard dudes not being as weedy anymore. I think from your other posts you were probably around for 1+ save Chaos Knights when '1 is always a fail' wasn't a rule. Jeebus. Get those stuck into anything S3 and it was curtains for the weedy unit, because they couldn't hurt the Knights.
The days of Magic ruining the game are pretty much gone.
In short, it's far harder to come up with a 'sure thing' army in AoS because the curve of relative potency isn't as pronounced.