Daemonhunters Wishlisting Thread

[DarkLink]

One small change can make a difference. GW has taken to fixing their mistakes if new codices give them the chance. A small special rule like Descent of Angels made Vanguard awesome and Devastators got a points decrease when in the BA codex.

Well, heck, I think their special mission rule is great. The real problem is their cost. They pay way too much for that AP 3. I would just drop that, replace it with a less overpriced shooting ability (maybe assault 2 18" lasguns?), and then drop their points to an appropriate cost. That way you would have a squad that still has decent shooting, can be very flexible in their deployment, and still act as an effective and cheap means of delivering special weapons.

[MarshalAdamar]

This should stir the pot

Grey Knights are NOT over priced!!

(Ducks head and watches fire works)

I keep thinking about the PA GK and they don't seem all that expensive for what they are.

Let’s cost one out.

A marine is 16pts, a storm bolter is 5pts if you buy if or a Sgt. or IC, that brings us to 21pts, so for what? 4 points you get WS 5 AND 2 attacks AND STR6!

They are even better than a whole unit of friggin veteran sgts!

You get a unit that hits on 3’s usually and wound on 2’s

They are way better than standard Marines!! So what’s with all the gnashing of teeth?

Seems to me what GK need are not Uber marines for super cheap.

Think of the stink when Grey hunters came out with BP + CCW AND they were one point cheaper.

The Sky fell, the rivers ran as blood and the moon was black as sack cloth.

And that was over +1 attack and -1 point cost.

So grey knights should bring about the rapture if they were any cheaper than they are now.

I submit that what the codex GK needs is not super cheap super marines but some cheaper troops like storm troopers and cheap chimeras etc to form the bulk of the army so that they are not handicapped with super low model count like they are now.

Grey knights are the super elite and so they should be expensive (all super elite units are) so the bulk of the GK army should not be GK’s

Sound weird but stay with me. Think about them like Delta force, you would not see a whole army of delta force. They are the spear tip of a larger army so to simulate that you make them kick much butt but you don’t have a whole army based around them in large numbers.

How cheap would you make Grey knights in power armor? They are better in every way than regular space marines (and they should be) but points is the great equalizer so if make them too cheap you make them broken.

Would it not be better to give them cheap IST’s with some cool rules, maybe make some special rules for the IST’s if you field an inquisitor?

I like the idea of heroic intervention for the teleporting GK that would be cool. And they would stay troops so you can take them and not take up other slots for other cools stuff.

I might make them more flexible, give the standard guys the option to deep strike without taking up a FA slot so they are always scoring, give them some other options in the squad, flamers, incinerators etc. I want them to be awesome but I would disappointed if all they did was say “Grey knights in power armor = 10 pts!” FTW!

That would be supremely lame.

I want grey knights to rock but not because they are 4 times as good as any comparable model for ½ the price.

Flame away.

[Ahrimaneus]

This should stir the pot
Yadda Yadda Yadda

I actually agree with you on this one and would take it a step further. I don't want cheap really good marines. We already have a couple of codices with those (SW, BA). Not to mention the fact that good old C:SM is still pretty damn good in its own right. I want REALLY badass marines that are extra survivable, for MORE points. If you play with an all GK force you are correct in that it is a delta force kind of deal, and should be a small, specialized, uber strike force. Give me a diesel dreadnought that can tango with MC's. Give me a Grand Master that will lay the smackdown on anybody shy of mephiston/sanguinor, and give them a run for their money as well. Give me TAGK and PAGK that are way more expensive than your standard marine and are WAY harder to kill than your standard marine. The problem right now is that grey knights get decimated by the same stuff that decimates all marines: Battle Cannons, Plasmaguns, High Init no armor save CC specialists, wound dumping, etc. They are the most elite Space Marine force in the galaxy, the best of the best of the best. They make your typical Ultramarine look like a pockmarked high school freshman in a pro NFL game. The rules should reflect this.

I want one squad of grey knights who will be borderline impossible to kill without some ridiculous firepower, backed up by IST's, or take 20 or so GK in PA/TA in storm ravens/teleporting and call it a day. Throw in the assassins for flavor, daemonhosts for some ridiculousness, and some really cool retinue/other squad ideas. Bang. Versatile, unique, competitive, and REALLY REALLY FUN codex!

[Atrotos]

1. What Ahrimaneus said. The "15 points for being a marine + 5 pts for a storm bolter + 5 pts for NFW etc." formula doesn't work because power armor still only works less than one third of the time. None of the Grey Knights special abilities help him out when you roll a '2'.

Well, heck, I think their special mission rule is great. The real problem is their cost. They pay way too much for that AP 3. I would just drop that, replace it with a less overpriced shooting ability (maybe assault 2 18" lasguns?), and then drop their points to an appropriate cost. That way you would have a squad that still has decent shooting, can be very flexible in their deployment, and still act as an effective and cheap means of delivering special weapons.

2. Str 3 Assault 2 is crap. Even Str 3 AP 3 is crap but you can't "just drop it" because then they're just expensive guardsmen. I know most pure GK players have no problem with this -they see no difference between the IG and the stormtroopers but consider this: If I say "I think the GK's stormbolter is great. The problem is their cost. They pay way too much for shrouding. I would just drop that." What the hell is a Grey Knight without shrouding? Its a power that goes a long way to shaping the GK identity - something that widens the gap between the GK and the average marine.

The current ST's share a major fault with the current GK. None of their supposedly awesome offensive abilities keep them alive longer than the average GEQ. If you ask me all ST's should have exactly what they do now, + reserve bonuses, + WS 4, + Stubborn, + more weapon options, + unique orders, + dedicated Valkyries all for 12 pts a model. Yes that's about 20 points a model worth of stuff but you can't use it all at once so it's not worth as much and it all goes down hill at the first sign of a heavy flamer.

GK players look down their noses at the ST's wanting them only as more bodies but what the GK is to a marine the ST is to an IG Veteran. They're the best of the best in their own category.

[Duke]

Plus, all your balancing stuff goes out the door when we find out that PAGK is now AAGK (artificer armour grey knights) and that all terms have 2+ 3++ standard. Laugh at it now, but everyone also laughed when I said deep striking land raiders and flying dreads for blood angels.

I could see a squad of 5 costing easily 150 pts before transports.

Duke

[DarkLink]

1. What Ahrimaneus said. The "15 points for being a marine + 5 pts for a storm bolter + 5 pts for NFW etc." formula doesn't work because power armor still only works less than one third of the time. None of the Grey Knights special abilities help him out when you roll a '2'.

Right. You can't just stick wargear options onto every single member of a squad and think that that is what a full unit should pay. Look at Howling Banshees. They're 16pts per model. A power weapon is 15pts. Are Howling Banshees 1pt per model, +15 for their Power Weapons? That sort of math just doesn't add up.

Now, go and compare GKs to Chaos Cult Troops. They're all similar in being Marines on steroids. And when you compare PAGK to them, you realize that GKs are indeed a bit too expensive compared to Berzerkers and Plague Marines. Really, they're on par with TKsons and Noise Marines, both of which are a bit overpriced as well.

Personally, I would put GKs in their current incarnation at worth about 22pts per model. Remember, they lack lots of things like grenades, and their True Grit is just a much worse version of the Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW that Chaos Marines get. Shrouding is almost completely worthless. All they really get is Storm Bolters, Str 6 and WS 5, which is nice but not worth 25pts per model.

Now, on the other hand GKTs are just about right. Just give them the option to get the new THSSs for a reasonable price, and they're golden.

2. Str 3 Assault 2 is crap. Even Str 3 AP 3 is crap but you can't "just drop it" because then they're just expensive guardsmen.

The current ST's share a major fault with the current GK. None of their supposedly awesome offensive abilities keep them alive longer than the average GEQ.

Meh, details. My point is the same as your second point; STs just pay too many points for their offensive abilities.

Plus, Storm Troopers have only had AP3 for, what, a year now? I mean, before the new IG 'dex hellguns were just slightly better lasguns. I wouldn't exactly say it was a really big part of their identity. Frankly I think that their special missions rule is much more characterful (and much more useful rules-wise).

[Mr.Pickelz]

what i meant by keeping IST is keep the entry, not the old price/rules, but have a dedicated troop slot that you can take with a inquisitor, i do apologize for not making that clear Dark-link. However i would like to see the inquisitor being able to keep a representation of his personal "Army", and not have to purely rely on GK support, being that everyone is saying allies is out, what is a inquisitor suppose to do for back up? rely purely on a space marine chapter? that is spread out far and thin... also, how would someone represent a radical inquisitor? if they keep daemon hosts, then no Grey knights for that army (assuming that rule still stands).

[DarkLink]

Oh, well, yeah, I agree with that. They should definitely keep them as troops and update their rules.

My only caveat is that I would rather not see the AP3 and 16pts per model. Too many points for a not-that-useful ability. But the rest of the new Storm Trooper rules are great, and they can just switch the AP3 out for something else that won't make them overpriced.

[Drew da Destroya]

Honestly, I'd like to see Arbites in the codex, instead of IST... just to get some more variety in the game. Maybe keep the ISTs in as a Fast Attack (deep striking, or dedicated Valkyrie choice) or Elite slot, since they are a "cool" unit.

[Duke]

I'm still in the artificer armor camp, so all this balancing with power armor may be pointless.
Duke