Daemonhunters

[Loken]

So what technically consitutes "Daemons" since the definition on page 20 of the Daemonhunters codex is somewhat dated? Seems it just needs a tweak?

Obviously anything in Codex: Daemons and everything listed, though a few things no longer exist?

"All Daemonhosts, Greater Daemons, Daemon Packs, Daemon Beasts, Nurglings, Daemonically Possessed Vehicles (such as Defilers) or those with the Parasitic Possession, Living Vehicle or Mutated Hull upgrades. Eldar Avatars, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, and Chaos Lords with the Daemonic Stature gift and/or over 50 points of daemonic gifts."

Alec

[fuzzbuket]

just take it as

if its
a) in the deamon codex
b) its listed as a daemon in its entry
c) if it has deamon on its name or possesed!

its simple and no-one should have a problem

^_^

[sebi81]

I would count the following as deamons:
1) Everything in the deamon codex
2) Deamon princes, posessed chaos marines, posessed vehicles (defilers and those with the upgrade) and greater and lesser deamons from the chaos space marine codex
3) Eldar Avatars
plus some forgeworld or apocalypse vehicles

[DarkLink]

Technically speaking, not very much counts as Daemons. Soulgrinders/Defilers, maybe a few others, but not much else.

However, you should absolutely just use the lists above. It's pretty clear what is and isn't a daemon, and your opponent would have to be a [Comment censored by the Inquisition for extreme heresy, blasphemous comment, and explicit imagery and violence] to argue with you.

[Tynskel]

I have always treated the 'chaos lord with 50 points of daemonic gifs' as if the lord has a mark and a Daemon weapon. That's usually 50+ points in stuff that is directly chaos related (unlike a plasma pistol or combi-melta).

[sebi81]

For me this is a little too much rules interpretation. In the actual codex there are no daemonic gifts anymore. So there are no Lords spending more than 50 points on such gifts. This means the rule is no longer counting. In the old codex there was no entry for deamon princes, them being just a lord with enough gifts to count as deamonic. In the new codex there is an entry for lords and an entry for deamon princes. In my opinion only the princes count as deamons.

[Tynskel]

you could treat it that way--- I was just using what the flavor of the dex supports. If you take 'chaos' items, and reach a threshold (50 points), you are sufficiently tainted to be effected by Grey Knight Special Rules. Really, the only way for a Chaos Lord to do it is to take both:
1) a Daemon Weapon (it's a daemon!)
2) Mark of Chaos.

I am not pointing to anything else in the list entry for 'Lords'--- that's just weapons, armor, more weapons, meltabombs. But the Mark of Chaos is a beacon to the warp, and a Daemon Weapon, well, is a Daemon.

Most people don't take Daemon Weapons (for some reason they don't like their weapon eating their soul...). So, in most cases, you'll never get to apply this special rule against the Chaos Lord, anyhow.

[Loken]

Thanks to all who posted here. I think the "reasonable" approach is what we will follow. Those who are saying that there are almost no demons anymore because of some technical reading, really, if you tried to pull that kind of rules lawyering in a game I would smack you. It is exactly why I play Apoc and not standard 40K anymore. In Apoc we are all out to have fun and blow stuff up and we RARELY have an argument.

Alec

[fuzzbuket]

id say the fix is declaring any "daemonic" unit a deamon cause if the GKs get a boost the deamons get sustained attack so its nice and balanced

[Calypso2ts]

Only those things on the list ACTUALLY count as Daemons in game terms. However, I am sure an opponent would be glad to house rule that with you to include, say CoC units, summoned lesser Daemons and other appropriate models.

DH are weak enough in general, I don't think you need to revisit the sustained attack rules.