razorwing or voidraven?

[thecactusman17]

Today, I played two games involving Dark Eldar. In one I played as DE (750 points vs. Blood Angels) and in one against (Witch Hunters, 1850). In each, one of the new jet heavies made it onto the table.

In my game, I took the Razor. Weapon and gear loadout was 2 Disintegrators, 3 monoscythes, one shatterfield, a splinter cannon, and nightshields. The model killed two Sanguinary Guard and scared the crap out of my opponent until he glanced off one of the disintegrators. He killed this model with a bit of difficulty but it eventually fell to a long range blast from a dreadnought. The sheer amount of dice this thing could roll was outstanding. 6x S5 AP2 followed up by 6x P4+ AP5 AND the possibility for unloading up to four missiles at once for less than 175 points is well worth the cost IMO. I left the Dark Lances and anti-tank to the other units, though I'm wondering if that was a mistake.

The Void Raven also proved a fairly reliable unit. the void lances did a decent job popping tanks at range, but the void mine never came into play. the missiles were expended against a large but slightly spread out blob of sisters all at once, doing 23 wounds total.

I think that overall, the Razorwing was the better unit despite the better play by my opponent. the question is equipping it. the amount of firepower compared to the cost places the razorwing on a better level of efficiency especially at dealing with elite or massed infantry. With the right loadout, this unit is a powerful threat to infantry and vehicles alike.

What's your experience with them? also, can anyone with the Razorwing or Void Phoenix models describe what their table footprint is like? Are they large, or can they be represented easily with existing model sizes?

[isotope99]

The razorwing wins against infantry, especially hordes like orks, gaunts or blob IG and the void raven works best against mech (around 70% chance of at least glancing and 56% of penetrating). The void mine is pretty rubbish as far as I can tell (I read it that it can't be dropped at supersonic 36" speed) and therefore is only likely to see action against units that are very close. The use I can see for it is bombing units still bunched up after an assault close to your lines.

I don't have the FW Raven, but I do have a phoenix and it fits easily on a valkyrie base. I think you'd have a hard time balancing it on a regular flying base.

The real question is whether either is sufficiently better to justify their points and beat out ravager spam. For example, three dark lances have similar %s to the void raven's two void lances.

[OXRS]

A lot of people talk about how much cheaper the Razorwing is compared to the Voidraven, but I don't see it. The stock missiles are kind of a letdown compared with S7 with re-rolls to wound, so that's +20 for me. The twin linked splinter rifle needs to be upgraded to the splinter cannon to be worthwhile, so that's another +10. The Voidraven gets a discount on the better missiles (same price as monoscythe, while the Razorwing pays for the upgrade), so after all is said and done it's 10 points cheaper for 10 armour all around, two dark lances, splinter cannon and 4 shatterfield missiles, compared with 11 front and side armour, two void lances, a void mine instead of the splinter cannon and 4 shatterfield missiles.

This is personally how I run either of them, and the S9 lances and 11 armour have been worth it for me. I would rather take Ravagers over Razorwings with monoscythe missiles, so that's not really an option in my eyes. Monoscythe and shatterfield missiles both threaten infantry, but shatterfield threatens the same infantry, monstrous creatures and vehicles much more effectively. It's granted that the mine doesn't see as much use as it could, but I'm not exactly missing the poisoned attacks considering the rest of the army.

So, yes... The way I use them personally, it's the Ravager or the Voidraven. Never the Razorwing.

[w7west]

Really both of them are extremely dangerous. The razorwing can deliver so much anti infantry damage in one turn that even ig players will be scratching their heads. depending on the loadout it can then go on to support with anti tank or more anti infantry if anything is left. I would imagine if a nids or ork player saw you pull three of these out of your box they would just go home.

The voidraven is particularly nasty. I would suggest running two to three if you do take them in order to capitalize on their void mines. Since you are limited to 12" move when using them, keep your ravens close to punish any squads foolish enough to deep strike in with meltas. These are very important vehicles once you pay the points for them so nightsheilds and flickerfields are going to be mandatory. For missiles I would take one necroxin and one shatterfield on each so you get that little extra chance at pinning. If you have 20 spare points laying around grab some more missiles and the voidraven becomes an ungodly infantry killing machine from 48" away.

Is it worth the points instead of a ravager? I think it would be worth it to always include at least one of these guys in a 1000 point game, and two to three in 1500 - 2000. Above 2000 I wouldn't leave home without all three. If you like death and destruction on the highest level these planes are for you.

[BuFFo]

I took Razorwings in one of my up and coming battle reports, decked out with a splinter cannon, Disintegrators and Shadderpoop missiles, and wow, the anti infantry destruction is amazing.

If you take the Razorwing, I would go with a splinter cannon, 2 dissies and anti infantry missiles.

The voidraven is just for anti tank. It has two Lascannons with the Melta rule. That, in itself, is powerful. Oh so very powerful.

But as you can kit out either vehicle however you need, neither is better that the other. Both units are very well balanced with each other. Great unit design!

[Xas]

voidraven all for me. 4 shatterfield and both upgrades. this is the only plane that I can jsutify over a ravager (for anti tank) or some venoms (anti infantry) as it has s9 lances for usage when the missiles arent needed/already used.

the missiles are great (volley them all at once and you can make allmost every infantry unit vanish within one salvo) but not worth the whole price of the razorwing as I dont like the mix of splinter cannon and lances/desintegrators (if you could upgrade the 3rd gun to a lance or desintegrator we could talk).
however the ~80 you pay premium over a ravager for the voidraven with 4 missiles is what those missiles are easily worth for me (his 2 voidlances are roughly the same as the ravagers 3 lances).


so in a nutshell I'd say take the fliers only if you want the bombs. then the type depends on what "flavour" of ravager the replace. if you would take a 3 lance one take the voidraven, if you take the 3 desintegrator type get a razorwing with desintegrators and splinter cannon.

[DrBored]

Razorwing all the way.

One thing you should never do... shoot Shatterfield missiles at vehicles. Even at armor 10, you need to roll 3's to glance, and pray to the gods you don't glance because that's -3 to the result roll (-2 for glancing, -1 for AP -). As armor gets more powerful, the Shatterfield does even less.

Which brings me to a funny point. At str 7, you're wounding pretty much everything except t6+ things on a 2. Why bother with re-rolls to wound when you can have a Necrotoxin that also wounds EVERYTHING (including t6+) and also has a chance to pin the enemy, and ignores Guard, Ork, Nid, and other DE armor? I'm confused as to why nobody has mentioned the Necrotoxin missile. The Shatterfield isn't going to do much for anti-tank (unlike Dark Lances) so if you're going Razorwing, forget about popping tanks and leave that to your other units and take the Necrotoxin.

[OXRS]

Razorwing all the way.

One thing you should never do... shoot Shatterfield missiles at vehicles. Even at armor 10, you need to roll 3's to glance, and pray to the gods you don't glance because that's -3 to the result roll (-2 for glancing, -1 for AP -). As armor gets more powerful, the Shatterfield does even less.

Which brings me to a funny point. At str 7, you're wounding pretty much everything except t6+ things on a 2. Why bother with re-rolls to wound when you can have a Necrotoxin that also wounds EVERYTHING (including t6+) and also has a chance to pin the enemy, and ignores Guard, Ork, Nid, and other DE armor? I'm confused as to why nobody has mentioned the Necrotoxin missile. The Shatterfield isn't going to do much for anti-tank (unlike Dark Lances) so if you're going Razorwing, forget about popping tanks and leave that to your other units and take the Necrotoxin.

Most of the time you'll never target vehicles, but when you fire four large blasts there's a good chance you can catch one in the blast. Also, when you target a vehicle you can place the centre over any part of the vehicle, so if there are multiple infantry units near the vehicle it's possible to get more hits in that way. Either way, if you glance a vehicle it won't shoot next turn. That's one in the win column. Besides that point, you're shooting four of these missiles so there's a good chance you will get a penetrating hit in which can remove a weapon or immobilize. Shatterfield missiles do that better than monoscythe and necrotoxin can't do it at all. So no, I don't agree with you that you should never target vehicles. You should do what is tactically viable at the time. If the vehicle is your only target then it is a huge waste of missiles, but that's a gross over simplification.

Your funny point isn't so funny. First, 5+ armour saves are irrelevant. Are you even playing 5th edition? Everybody can get a cover save really easily. Sure, you can kill infantry out in the open but nearly any weapon can do that. Second, wounding on 2+ means you get 5/6 hits as wounds. Wounding 2+ with re-rolls means you wound 35/36 hits. I know which I'd prefer. I also prefer not allowing other Dark Eldar players, or IG command squads with medics, to take their FNP save. Against T6 you either wound on a poisoned 2+ or 3+ with re-rolls, which is damn close, with the slight edge going to necrotoxin. If you're shooting at a Wraithlord (T8), necrotoxin absolutely has the advantage, but you can just shoot at it with any other weapon in the army and the Wraithlord has a habit of dying.

I have more than enough poisoned weapons in my army, those kinds of attacks will never be in short supply. A little more isn't exactly appealing when there is an option that can fill a roll I don't have filled. If I want to wound mass infantry on 2+ and ignore 5+ armour, I won't spend the extra points and I'll just stick with monoscythe on a Razorwing, which also lets me ignore FNP in the same way as shatterfield. The big targets that necrotoxin would be more useful against still get their armour save, and are better dealt with using dark light weaponry or the high number of poisoned attacks that nearly any unit can provide.

As an afterthought, I almost forgot to mention pinning. I suppose if you run some Raiders with torment grenades right up to your target before you shoot, the pinning could be useful and that's a good application of the necrotoxin missiles. Other than that, pinning isn't reliable enough to be really considered, in my opinion. It's a nice bonus, but nothing to base a choice around. Also, a canny opponent is just as likely to go to ground, surviving a lot more shots.

[BlindGunn]

I've had 2 Razorwings ever since Forgeworld released them (I wanted to see what FW quality was like & they were the cheapest thing in the catalogue at the time). While the costing of the FW rules was horribly over-priced, using VDR and a couple of minor altercations made a wonderful fighter for decent points.

I also bought the VoidDragon when they released the rules to allow Dark Eldar to use it as well.

It's nice I can now use my models without asking permission!

However, IMHO, I think the Razorwing is a better bang for your buck under the new rules.

First of all - you get 4 missiles free. Admittedly, not the best missiles but you get them, regardless. They work fine (I know, I just plastered a Demonhunter's army this weekend with them).

You get both 2 Dark lances (used to be 1 twin-linked for anyone who cared) so you have 2 of the 3 AT shots of the Ravager.

Rifle is useless, so I admit, I auto upgrade to Splinter cannon for 10pts.

That's just 155pts. That's a good deal. (I do upgrade mine to include FlickerField & NightShield, but that's personal choice & optional. Mine are @ 175 as a result.) With this I can go after infantry (preferred) or vehicle targets. Missiles and Splinter cannon are useless against vehicles, but 2 dark lances makes it a pretty reliable anti-vehicle platform. In desperation I could upgrade a couple of missiles to Strength 7 Shatterfields for light stuff, but none of the missiles are really intended to take out vehicles.

If you really want anti-personel - drop the lances and go with Disintgrators & upgrade the rifle to Splinter Cannon. No Ravager can match the sheer number of potential wounds a properly equiped Razorwing can potentially put out! However, the Dark Lances are good enough to cause a couple of those unsavable woulds when I need them, too.


The Voidraven Bomber however, for the same points cost only gets you 2 Void Lances and 1 (ONE) Void Mine with a 3" blast! You do get better armour, so you are more-or-less invulnerable to massed bolter fire which is nice but required when you have to drop one of your main weapons by over-flying the target. You have the option to can carry up to 4 missiles, but you pay for each one. Implossion missile looks like fun, but do I want to spend 30 points each?

If going for anti-tank, the basic load is ok, the +1 strength of the Void Lance helps kill tanks. However, I wouldn't want to count on the mine for anything. I also wouldn't want to fly my bomber that close to a target as that's when lucky shots from Meltas, Plasma Rifles double-tapping and lots of other short rannged, high strength weapons become nasty. (Tau would glance you to death with all their strength 5 weapons.) Honestly, I think I'd prefer the extra lance of a 3-lance Ravager than the bomber at this point.

If going for anti-infantry, I would have to load up on missiles. That's an additional 40 points. Add in Flicker Field and suddenly you've spent 200pts+. Not worth it in my mind.

If they would "Errata" the rules so that you had a single mine/turn rather than just a single one-shot mine, I'd maybe consider it. Maybe include 2-4 "regular" Monoscyth missiles for free, it would at least make it worth the points.

However, as with all my advice - these are personal preferences. You need to experiment and see what works for you.

In truth, I'll probably buy both when (hoping) they release the new models anyway!

[DrBored]

Most of the time you'll never target vehicles, but when you fire four large blasts there's a good chance you can catch one in the blast. Also, when you target a vehicle you can place the centre over any part of the vehicle, so if there are multiple infantry units near the vehicle it's possible to get more hits in that way. Either way, if you glance a vehicle it won't shoot next turn. That's one in the win column. Besides that point, you're shooting four of these missiles so there's a good chance you will get a penetrating hit in which can remove a weapon or immobilize. Shatterfield missiles do that better than monoscythe and necrotoxin can't do it at all. So no, I don't agree with you that you should never target vehicles. You should do what is tactically viable at the time. If the vehicle is your only target then it is a huge waste of missiles, but that's a gross over simplification.

Your funny point isn't so funny. First, 5+ armour saves are irrelevant. Are you even playing 5th edition? Everybody can get a cover save really easily. Sure, you can kill infantry out in the open but nearly any weapon can do that. Second, wounding on 2+ means you get 5/6 hits as wounds. Wounding 2+ with re-rolls means you wound 35/36 hits. I know which I'd prefer. I also prefer not allowing other Dark Eldar players, or IG command squads with medics, to take their FNP save. Against T6 you either wound on a poisoned 2+ or 3+ with re-rolls, which is damn close, with the slight edge going to necrotoxin. If you're shooting at a Wraithlord (T8), necrotoxin absolutely has the advantage, but you can just shoot at it with any other weapon in the army and the Wraithlord has a habit of dying.

I have more than enough poisoned weapons in my army, those kinds of attacks will never be in short supply. A little more isn't exactly appealing when there is an option that can fill a roll I don't have filled. If I want to wound mass infantry on 2+ and ignore 5+ armour, I won't spend the extra points and I'll just stick with monoscythe on a Razorwing, which also lets me ignore FNP in the same way as shatterfield. The big targets that necrotoxin would be more useful against still get their armour save, and are better dealt with using dark light weaponry or the high number of poisoned attacks that nearly any unit can provide.

As an afterthought, I almost forgot to mention pinning. I suppose if you run some Raiders with torment grenades right up to your target before you shoot, the pinning could be useful and that's a good application of the necrotoxin missiles. Other than that, pinning isn't reliable enough to be really considered, in my opinion. It's a nice bonus, but nothing to base a choice around. Also, a canny opponent is just as likely to go to ground, surviving a lot more shots.

Well, your face.

In all seriousness, though I always hate it when I have to do so, you have some good points. The Shatterfield isn't ever going to do anything against vehicles (so long as that center hole is off of the hull, it's at half strength, so targeting infantry and hitting a tank is going to do squat) and targeting the vehicle in order to hit some infantry is just begging for a bad scatter.

So, I don't want to hear anything about these missiles being anything against vehicles when nearly everything in this army has str 8 ap 2 lance weapons.