Games Workshop and Sexism

[Uncle Nutsy]

Well this is an interesting topic.

I got about a third of the way through the initial post and started to question if the writer would actually get to the point and dispense with all the filibustering.

sadly, no.

If the writer stuck to the point instead of involving in unnecessary side-topics such as the passage about Nintendo, it would have been a much clearer letter and would drive the point home.


but at least I got to what i believe to be the core of the question, and that is why is the game sexist and why girls feel discouraged from this game.

I don't see any type of discouragement going on. Not in the hobby store, not in the gaming circle I'm in.

I think the issue is a lot of girls become aware of the time, effort and cost that's needed to be put into this hobby and a lot of them would rather do other activities.

[Psychosplodge]

I think you entirely missed the point of the fluff re the necromunda escher thing,
The idea as I remember it (has been a while) is not that the men ACTUALLY were genetically inferior,
they were just perceived to be by the females of the matriachal escher house for possesing a Y chromosome.

The twilight references you make are completely irrelavant (vampires don't sparkle, faires do....), plus they are really badly written books, which are very derivative and should have remained a trilogy to stay remotely readable.

I'd be more worried about a year 7 pupil playing the 18 rated GTA and call of duty games than the perceived sexism of the 40k universe.

Somebody made a good point about the IG - once the flak jacket and helmets on , you arn't really going to tell the sex at 28mm lol.

Regarding the shop experiance you are spot on, my better half just completely refuses to enter these days, maybe you should just stick to that bit?

[Sparfunk]

figure ill jump in with some thoughts.

i read the whole OP, and then the first few pages, then skim read the other 7 or so.

first id like to start on the 'GW stores can be hostile places for girls' and give my own experiences on this subject:

my longtime girlfriend wont go into a GW store with me unless its pretty much just the staff member in there. why? because when we started dating, a good few years ago now, the first few times she went into GW with me and it was crowded EVERYONE would stop what conversations they were having and do one of two things: either concentrate intently on what theyre painting/reading/looking at, or stare at her.
this happened about 4 times before she said that it really made her feel awkward and since then she has refused to go in with me if there are any apparent 'regulars' in there.
now, this isnt games workshops fault. i mean no offense to anyone here as i say this, but this hobby has always attracted the socially inept, i know thats not all it attracts, but a lot of the customers, and especially regulars that you might see at weekends, are teenage boys who arent all that great at dealing with social situations that put them outside of their comfort zone, hell i was one of them once.

anyway, other comments.

ill have a short rant about the female space marines argument as its a pet peeve of mine.

its simple: google female body builders, now imagine them WITHOUT the silicone breasts, now put power armour on them and stand them next to a male space marine... WOAH they look the same!?!??!?!!

from a background point of view, i dont think there should be female space marines. there were no female spartans, no female soldiers in the armies of ancient rome, no women in the SS, hell, no women in forces like big red one.

not to say there werent female combatants through the ages, of course there were, but its fitting that they shouldnt exist in a space marine army.

next point:

i second most peoples comments that female IG would be awesome. one person asked and im not sure if it was answered, weather or not female IG were predominant in the background... Tona Criid is one of the best characters in the gaunts ghosts series and is female, a sergeant (by the end) AND a mum. shes awesome. there are others, but i couldnt think of one more obvious than that one.

a comment on the letter itself... it was ok reading for the first... half? third? but then it kinda degenerated into a rant that wont really be taken seriously by head office.

also a comment on the 'other companies have more sexual equality in their ranges' comment:

im only going to speak from the perspective of warmachine/hordes as i consider that my main game system nowadays and i know the models well. the female models are equally as 'sexist' and/or 'masogynistic' as the GW ones, if not more so. the 2010 Feora model is wearing a platemail corset/bustier, the 2010 skarre model is wearing a mini skirt and a boob tube. kara sloan is the seductively sexy sniper chick. madeline corbeau is a whore. first mate hawk is a pirate chick who inspires the male pirates around her to fight harder in an attempt to get her to notice them. theres a LOT more. yes there area few that arent (dirty meg, the female member of the black 13th etc) but most are equally, if not more, 'offensive' than GW's attempts.

and my last comment is that a while back, i worked for GW in the uk, as a part timer while studying, for about 2 years. regarding the comment about 'are you buying these for your husband/son etc'... i learnt quickly that the more appropriate question was 'are you buying these for yourself?', which i would ask the mums that came in obviously buying presents, because its much better to get a 'no, dont be silly, its for my son' from them and a cool conversation about the hobby from a female hobbyist than it is to just offend the female hobbyist. our store had a couple of female gamers, but that store (the customers) were quite mature (almost all regulars 18+ with a crushingly small group of school kids that only turned up on sundays) (it also wasnt my 'local' store that i grew up with and now visit). i found while working there that most female hobbyists wouldnt play the game (thought the game was too boyish was a comment ive had) but loved the painting, to each their own i guess, i know female gamers that enjoy playing very much.

[DarkLink]

from a background point of view, i dont think there should be female space marines. there were no female spartans, no female soldiers in the armies of ancient rome, no women in the SS, hell, no women in forces like big red one.

That's because women weren't usually allowed to join the military until this last century. Though, interestingly, during some points in the middle ages it wasn't at all unusual for a woman to be in charge of a castle or something, and thus in charge of the military

Now, military service does require a certain level of physical fitness, and a certain mental attitude. Physiologically and psychologically, there is probably a lower proportion of women that want/can meet those standards than men (by psychologically, I mean that men tend to be more aggressive and physically violent, so they have more of a predilection towards military service).

However, that's a very, very different thing from saying that women can't, or shouldn't, perform. So long as they meet the same standards that men are held to, there is absolutely no reason they shouldn't be allowed to serve.

Not that this has anything to do with female space Marines, but I digress.

a comment on the letter itself... it was ok reading for the first... half? third? but then it kinda degenerated into a rant that wont really be taken seriously by head office.

I couldn't even get that far into it. Brevity is the soul of wit. If you're going to try and give someone a "reasons why you suck" speech, keep it short or they'll just ignore you.

[BuFFo]

and that is why is the game sexist

The game isn't the least bit sexist, which has been proven in multiple posts in this very thread. I know you aren't asking the question directly, you are just paraphrasing the OP.

and why girls feel discouraged from this game.

If anything, the game is about subject matters which normally do not appeal to females, so by its very nature the game discourages 'your average female', just like I am sure 'your average male' is not into Bratz Toys.

The game does not, however, discourage females who are into this kind of hobby from participating in it. Maybe the fat, smelly arrogant male gamers do, but hey, they discourage everyone, not just the women lol.

[eldargal]

Yes, the problem isn't with GW (though they could do more as I've said above), what is a problem is that amongst the 'geek' girls 40k still has a very low profile. I've managed to get most of my friends into the hobby simply by using their parallel interests in video games, RPGs etc to get them hooked. Then having a small group of girls encouraged some of the spouses/girlfriends/sisters/etc to stay and get into it themselves because they didn't feel like they were intruding into a boys-only area.

[Kahoolin]

Whoah, that letter was long! Hopefully I can hold back from being just as long

I think there are a lot of issues here. To me it seems like the world has changed a bit recently and maybe GW hasn't caught up yet, but they will. It's only a matter of time before GW games are girl-gamer friendly, or else they'll eventually fall to something that is. I can see the OP's point, the portrayals of females in the miniature lines and core rules are problematic from a modern standpoint, to say the least. What was acceptable in the 80s is not any more.

On the other hand though, some activities are simply favoured by one gender more than another, and marketed as such. I don't think that's a very telling reason to prevent change in this case though, firstly because obviously, girls want to play GW games. Secondly, kids today are different from when I was a teenager in the 90s. In my admittedly limited experience with modern children (family, children of friends, kids in the street), gender is not much of a factor in teenage subculture today. I used to be a skater, and all my skater mates were guys. Now when I see skaters there are always a few girls. It's the same with other groups of kids and teens I've seen, they seem much less aware of male/female gender roles than when I was young.

Everyone has to admit that girls can be geeks too these days. Most of my female friends, my GF and my sister are gamers/geeks. Clearly women and girls are interested in warhammer, but the outdated fetish 80s crap (quite rightly) puts them off. If it has to go, it will. I don't know if writing a letter will do anything, but I think things will change soon enough. Like the letter said, females are 51% of the market and they are starting to show interest...

[Freefall945]

Three things I'd like to add.

First, I really don't think GW is interested in making the game only appealing to men. They want the most people to play it, as it generates the most money.

Second, no one should have illusions to suggest something is or isn't "Acceptable" for games workshop to do with their IP. As long as they don't break any laws, they can do what they like, and your recourse as a consumer is to not buy their product and tell your friends to not buy it as well.

Finally, I think we should all be extremely wary of any effort to deliberately egalitarianize warhammer 40k. Gently raising the profile of female participants in the 40k universe, like a refreshed Sisters Codex (and a mandatory scrapping of the ridiculous she-gimp squads), perhaps a forgeworld line of guardswomen from a culturally appropriate world; all of these are good. Hard changes to the lore, or even skirting around the law to make dramatic, unprecedented additions - chiefly female space marines - would be a painful blow to the long-enduring image of 40k, and like many players, I would becoming glassy-eyed with disillusionment and probably go play warmachine.

Just.. be careful what you wish for.

[Daemonette666]

I read your entire post, but I don't believe you have any legs to stand on.

Warhammer 40,000 is a game based on war, and is marketed to males. This is no different than a product marketed for women. Why is it always women putting on lipstick in the ads?

Reality is, humanity is divided into two sexes, and as such various aspects of society will eb geared to one sex over the other. Trying to androgenize everything is not the answer.

The answer is to not allow a 7 year old girl partake in a hobby that is marketed for 12+ year old people. I find it odd that you take the opinion of a child just barely realizing Santas Clause and the Easter Bunny don't exist.

The answer is to just cope with the reality that purses are for women, giant Ford Pick Up trucks are for men (the female models have vanity mirrors in them, just fyi), dresses are for women, and 40k is for men.

Now, if you were to pick an aspect of society that does not require a sex, say, space exploration or politics, and fault it for being sexist, then I would agree. But Warhammer 40k is a game designed for males.

Now, where is your letter to Mattel complaining that Barbie doesn't have enough males playing with their dolls?

- edit -

Space Marines - Male
Chaos Space Marines - Male and Female (yeah, more females here than Marines, go figure)
Deamons - Male and Female
IG - Male (the one or two female models don't count, lol)
Sisters of Battle - Female
Eldar - Male and Female
Dark Eldar - Male and Female
Tau - Male and Female
Tyranids - No sex (aliens)
Orks - No Sex (fungus)

In 40k, females are represented quite strongly. It is the perspective that GW's flagship army, Marines, is all male that makes the game seem 100% male, when in truth it isn't.

My local GW store has 3 or 4 females who regularly go there to play games or collect miniatures to paint. The nearest GW shop to that has even more women who go there to collect miniatures and convert and play with them. I have been wargaming for over 28 years myself, I am a woman, who collects Games Workshop miniatures, has 5 Armies for warhammer 40K, and also collects Battletech miniatures of which I have over 1000 miniatures.

I tend to find that GW staff are not the sexist ones in nthe stores. They have to watch their Ps & Qs. I find it is the other gamers who can without realising it, make sexist or silly remarks that could be deemed sexist. I knew of one wargamer who forgot his dice, and bought an entirely new set of dice instead of using mine just because mine were pink and purple.

I play traitor Guard, Adeptus Arbites (minidex), Chaos Daemons (mostly Slaaneshii), Chaos Space Marines (mostly noise marines), and Sisters of Battle. Sure a lot of the miniatures look or are painted in very feminine colours, but that is how I wanted them to look. I like pinks, purples, aquas, and other pastel colours.

I actually find I intimidate most players because of my confidence, and my tactical savy. I estimate I have won about 60%, lost 20% and drwan 20% of the games I have played. Most of my tactical abilities and my confidence could be contributed to the 14 years I spent in the Army, or the fact that I am Lesbian, and the psychologist who tested me for mental acuity (psych testing, and I.Q> testing) told me I had a 50%male/50% female brain pattern and behavior, and a well above average IQ level.

What gets me upset is when guys in general call me love or darl or hun. General Australian terms of endearment that are used to both belittle and compliment a woman. I know this will get a few comments from guys calling me love or darl in their replies. What I do is give as good as I get. When a guy makes a sexist or belittling remark, I get back at him with a remark that puts his sexuality in doubt, or call him something like "son", or "little boy" and ask him to pass the glue or something. They learn to watch what they say.

The only real gripe I have about some GW staff is that they have their favorite customers. I know one guy who is not an amazing painter, and quite average at converting miniatures, who regularly wins in store painting competitions over other people who IMHO have done a far better conversion and paint job than him. His friendship with the GW staff member in charge get of the competition help him win the event. I know 5 or 6 other people who used to frequently go to the local GW store, and now go to another one 15km away because of it.

As to your comment on seductively pose-able male slaves for the Dark Eldar. Why shouldn't they design a few of them to compliment the female slaves. Dark Eldar are both male and female, so they would treat male slave just as badly. Dark Eldar have no shyness about homosexuaklity, and are utterly depraved, so it should be reasonable to expect half naked male slaves as well. I would like to mention that dark Eldar consider humans and other species as animals. Just like dogs, so the gender of a slave doesn't matter to them. Slaves are used to work machinery, and general labour, to serve them food, to be tortured and experimented on, or put into the fighting arenas for the Dark Eldars entertainment.

If you want to use female miniatures to represent Imperial Guard troopers there are a number of companies out there that make female soldier miniatures. One Australian Company only makes female miniatures, though most of these are posed or dressed seductively.l They do make a great range of Blood Bowl miniatures.

You also have to remember that 90-95% or more of GW customers are male and most are very homophobic, so seductively poised half naked males would not be a product that would sell well. The female ones unfortunately would be a great seller, and work perfectly within the Dark Eldar slaves theme.

I just ignore small things like the DE slaves or the lack of female Imperial Guard troopers, etc, and just let the guys know to watch what they say around me, or get they end up being embarrassed by me putting their manhood down through innuendo or just beating them on the gaming table.

Well that's my 5 cents worth. (because 2 cent pieces are no longer used in Australian currency).

[aemzed]

You also have to remember that 90-95% or more of GW customers are male and most are very homophobic, so seductively poised half naked males would not be a product that would sell well.

I am a woman and I love getting to blow off some steam in these discussions.

*Cracks knuckles*

Now.... Foistly, 'seductively poised half naked males'? ...I would not find that sexy, I am not a lesbian nor am I attracted to chest waxing jocks. The way the models are done now ticks all the boxes for me and I'm guessing, a lot of heterosexual women.

OP:

Are we all forgetting that ALL THE MALE MODELS ARE OVERTLY SEXUALISED!? Not every man in real life is as buff/toned/brave/handsome as pretty much every male model is in the GW range. Is that not sexist/unfair for the men using the models who are not so well endowed?

Issue aside, I love getting to play with all these little fantastical men. Why would I want to look at a heap of sexy ladies when I am sexually attracted to men? Win win in my books.

As a lady, I do not appreciate you speaking on behalf of all women.
War has mostly been fought by men. This is not due to social inequality, but because of biological differences. Men (on the most part) tend to be psychically stronger. Women do have psychical constraints, such as pregnancy, menstruation (pms making some women tired, ill, in pain).

A game being based on war needs to have some realism, and choosing to genetically improve a female when you could perform the procedure on the male with less social implications, seems ridiculous. Sure these modifications could make women more physically 'equal', however we are talking about a faction of warriors who uphold a tradition. Personally, I am willing to put aside my proud sexuality for the sake of the tradition of brotherhood. There are plenty of sects/cults/groups/gatherings, both in reality and fantasy, which are specific to women and women only.

Why is this even a bad thing? You want equality? Be proud of the fact your species is even in the battle. Be proud of the duties of men just as you would the duties of women, or do you consider your role in society to be a lesser one? Maybe you are too focused on what you wish you had, so you ignore what you do have? It is shame like yours that causes these stark and hurtful feuds.

ALSO, Severina and Sevora Devout are the damndest sexiest models yet and I adore them. Def my fave female model I've seen by GW.

Sure, sometimes I am annoyed by the boobies they model on the female characters, but it is only a annoyance caused by the lack of realism. No lady could swing around a sword with great, heaving DD tits. Sadly, that is a mistake not caused by sexism, but lack of understanding regarding anatomy.

I play Space Wolves because I find great hairy Vikings totally sexy. Am I sexist too?

Your entire letter reeks of sexual frustration.