Games Workshop and Sexism

[Psychosplodge]

TITS or GTFO.

And I thought I'd not quite lowered the tone that far....


.....And you really don't want to see my moobs

[Aldramelech]

DEEP SIGH.

Geee.. Way to get all the lads to know you have breasts.
Thank you ladies, once again, for making my gender look bat**** dumb.

Yeeeeessssss, We'd kind of noticed that already..........

I would like to say that Eldergal's attitude to being a woman in the hobby has won nothing but respect from the majority male membership here, and that her opinion is respected not because she is a woman but because she she is intelligent and articulate as well as extremely knowledgeable on the subjects covered here.

You on the other hand have zero pull with your eight posts so far and have earned no respect as yet.

And it aint looking too promising for your contribution so far.

[Drew da Destroya]

Well, to be fair here, Eldargal is pretty well known as a major troll by a certain Commissar. So there may be some truth to her being a terrible person.

[DarkLink]

First, I really don't think GW is interested in making the game only appealing to men. They want the most people to play it, as it generates the most money.

This is a game about superhuman soldiers in space killing each other with chainsaw swords and rocket launchers. Who do you think this game is targeted at?

GW's not going to complain if women get into the hobby, too, but their target market is pretty obvious.

[Aldramelech]

Well, to be fair here, Eldargal is pretty well known as a major troll by a certain Commissar. So there may be some truth to her being a terrible person.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Political correctness has already ruined the world with banning things like ba ba black sheep.

That story is ten years old and the ban was scrapped within weeks of coming in. Weeks! everyone realised what a stupid idea that was. Behold:

[URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/600470.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/600470.stm[/URL]

I feel I should point out that your claims of "world ruination" might be a little hyperbolic.

Generally speaking, "political correctness" is not a useful, or helpful term. It's actually quite outdated as an idea. I would also suggest that there are far more urban legends about "political correctness gone mad" than there are actual cases of it.

I don't see why wanting to treat people fairly, with equal rights for all is so crazy. In a fictional setting, where mortal demigods bestride a galaxy torn by war, is it still such a shocking idea to imagine that some of the genetically engineed supersoldiers might have an XX chromosomal structure? Seriously, I don't get the rage.

I also find the arguments of "men are the ones who fight" slightly strange. Did the "*** Kicked By Girl" segment of the first "JKackass" film teach us nothing? I suppose the argument about strength carried some weight, back in the days of dinosaurs, when we had swords and fought with shields, maybe. But surely anyone can pull a trigger? Or drive a tank? Or deploy an orbital bombarment of viral bombs to condemn a daemon world to extinction (surely all that is needed is the right button and a cavalier lack of regard for human life). Or take massive quantities of steroids to boost their muscle bulk to astonishing leve;s before engaging in genetic manipulation to ensure their great personal beauty... oh wait, that was the Blood Angels, most aesthetic of all the chapters...

Also simple solution to those who want paticular models. use other ranges, or CONVERT, its a hobby.

I'd love to. Plastic female conversion pieces are the end result I hope for. A simple one-off plastic sprue of appropriate pieces would pretty much deal with the entire issue for me.

[UltramarineFan]

I like the way there's now a seperate argument going on between the women.. xD

[Freefall945]

I don't see why wanting to treat people fairly, with equal rights for all is so crazy. In a fictional setting, where mortal demigods bestride a galaxy torn by war, is it still such a shocking idea to imagine that some of the genetically engineed supersoldiers might have an XX chromosomal structure? Seriously, I don't get the rage.

I think I can explain the rage.

No one's saying Games Workshop couldn't spin it in such a way it fit with the universe. Some of the Female Space Marine Advocates (FSMA?) on this forum have made very competent arguments as to how it could be justified.

The problem comes from two sources. First, conflicting with existing thematic structures, and secondly the suckerpunch to immersion.

On the thematic structures, Space Marines particularly are themed very heavilly off european warrior monks, like the Knights Hospitaller or Templar. They are men who forsake wealth, love, even family for the divine duty of serving God/The Emperor in combat/Forevercombat. In exchange for this departure from mainstream society, they are girded in the iron bonds of brotherhood, going into battle knowing every man beside him is willing to die for him... and so on and so on.

Again, I'm sure someone is already Wiki'ing up a storm looking for an esoteric order of all female knights who were known to fight. It wouldn't matter if their was one. It would impede on the space marine's brightest core theme - Warrior Brothers.

Concerning the suckerpunch to immersion, the addition of female space marines would be seen as a bold and obvious attempt to rope in rogue demo-graphs by sacrificing the themes on the alter of topical issues/political correctness. Perhaps all the designers in Nottingham would legitimately feel it was cool - again, that would be irrelevant. It would introduce huge amounts of discussion about the presence of female space marines, any and all of which drag one kicking and screaming out of the 41st millennium and back into this one.

That isn't to say when I am playing my Eldar I literally forget I'm a human male in the year 2010, but I sure appreciate not having to deal with class-action lawsuits by my howling banshees and female guardians concerning wage disparity.

[eldargal]

Re FSMs, I've made the point that there is nothing that really prevents them on fluff basis, the supposed genetic incompatibility being based on faulty science and thus, perhaps, a result of ignorance. But, I still don't want to see official FSMs. Ever. I mean I've converted my own to tease the anti-FSM crowd in my games group, but I don't ever want to see the 'Space Marines are male' thing overturned in canon fluff, for the reasons Freefall mentions above.

This is where I see a strong difference between doing more to make the game accessible to women, and changing the game to try and make it appeal to women. The former, absolutely fine, and I've pointed out some points that would help with that. The latter, no. The game itself should not be changed, that defeats the purpose of trying to get more women interested in what I consider to be the finest sci-fi setting there is (closely followed by Firefly, Star Wars and Star Trek).

[MaltonNecromancer]

See Freefall945, that's the best, and most intelligent dissection of the reasons why anyone has ever given me. It makes sense, and addresses the thematic concerns of the larger 40K narrative.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a good enough reason for me, and I don't think it's a good enough reason to make Marines all male, but it is a reason I can appreciate, respect and understand.

To play Devil's Advocate, my counterpoint would draw on EldarGal's mention of Star Wars: Jedi are male and female, and have the whole warrior monk thing too. They like swords better than guns too. As long as our monks are celibate and focusing all that sexual frustration into a heady cocktail of rage, covert homosexuality and religious devotion, I see no reason they couldn't be together in a chapter. At worst, it would certainly make for some epically tragic Arthurian romances...

And no, not bloody Twilight before anyone makes that damned comparison. Cullen gets five rounds rapid and that's that.

Sorry. "Love Can Bloom" made me giggle.

...

And EldarGal: no love for BSG? Or Doctor Who? (I would pay cash money to watch Picard stare down a Dalek...)