1000pt Guard for Tournament

[Commander Vimes]

The Commissar Lord doesn't have Stealth, he has +1 to his cover save, which he does not pass on to his unit.

Meltaguns are better than melta bombs. I take enough casualties from my own vehicles exploding, piling my guys around one and then intentionally blowing it up to lose a sixth of the squad is just bad news. Meltaguns also help kill heavy things like Plague Marines and monstrous creatures.

I think Rough Riders are poor. I've tried very hard to make them work, but even with furious charge, two attacks at WS3 just doesn't do enough damage. And they are useless after that one charge.

[Sir Biscuit]

Ah, look at that... you DO have to give them weapons. Useful information. =)

The Lord Commissar absolutely passes on stealth to any unit he joins. Under Camo Cloak (Pg. 71):
"A model wearing a camo cloak has the Stealth universal special rule."

And the main rulebook FAQ at the bottom of page five, it clearly says that if some models in a unit have the stealth special rule, all members of the unit are granted it. It's pretty clear cut.

Regardless, the Lord Commissar is to expensive for my tastes and he's certainly not making it into my 1000 point list.

Thank you for the advice on the Vendetta pickup, it's actually a very good option. I'm considering it, I'll be playtesting what I have now soon and I'll let you know my thoughts on changes.

[Commander Vimes]

You're right that it is Stealth, but he does not confer it to his unit. Check page 48 of the main rulebook under Special Rules.

"The character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit"

[Axel]

Your list seems uninspired. Some points that come to mind:

- I suggest putting some meltabombs into your combined squad, or krak grenades. Were I to fight against your list, my armoured sentinel would bum-rush you (hopefully not near any objectives) and utterly frustrate you for the whole game. Similar results, though more dangerous for you, can occur using Marine dreadnoughts (evil, good and sparkly flavour), Kans, Wraithlords (melta bombs won't help) and so on. You have nothing in your list that can extract your blob from this situation, leaving me to kill your Vendetta/SWS and two Chimerae, sit on an objective and win. Commissar blobs are awesome. People should use them more often. They do need some thought put into them to be effective. The two-Commissar approach suggested above is a good 'un (otherwise you will hate Telion).

- 51-man squads are bloody hard to maneuver around the battlefield. It's very easy to get bunched up by terrain and flamed/barraged/mangled. It's even harder to get all 6 power weapons into the 2" assault radius at the same time against anything except a large Ork mob.

- Against any non-mechanised list (swarmy 'nids, Orks on foot, Guard on foot...anything on foot) you're going to struggle to kill anything worthwhile. Where is the thundering Ordnance of the Guard?

[ElCheezus]

Vimes' arguments for meltaguns against bombs are poor. If you're afraid to assault (in this case vehicles) for fear of losing modles, you should be playing a jetbike council that fortunes itself over and over again. Guard blobs are literally made of extra wounds.

The main damage-dealer is the power weapons, and any wounds that stick from the rest of the dudes are bonus. This is also why "meltas for killing plague marines" is a bad argument, too. Power weapons will kill them and ignore FNP just fine. Except that there are 4 attacks with each PW, and only one BS 3 melta shot.

Against MCs, the blob slows down a lot, but can still drag them down. I've had a half-power blob eat through two TMCs, one after the other. Their low number of attacks actually make MCs not that big of a threat. Wraithlords are an exception to this, of course. That's why you stay away from them. The game is won or lost in the movement phase, after all. If you ever get stuck on a walker or a wraithlord, have the Commissar take the wounds so you can break and shoot at the offending unit the next turn. That is, unless you actually like having it tarpitted and locked down. Don't forget that putting a walker or a wraithlord in a blob takes them out of the game, too.

[Commander Vimes]

A single power weapon does .33 wounds to a T5 or T6 opponent on the charge. The Meltagun does .42. So putting a couple meltas into a monstrous creature or unit of Plague Marines or another similarly touch opponent before you charge can significantly shorten the amount of time you are going to be stuck in combat. Winning the combat sooner opens up a whole range of new options. BS3 on the meltas isn't great, but with three or four in a unit, it's worthwhile to give the bring it down order. I've killed three Daemon Princes in a game with a 30 man Melta/power weapon blob before because I shot the crap out of them before I charged, so I wasn't stuck in combat forever.

Meltaguns are also much better than meltabombs at killing vehicles. If you're in range to charge, you're in 2d6 melta range. A meltagun will hit just as often as a sergeant with a melta bomb against a vehicle that moved 6". It will hit a lot more if that vehicle moved over 6". The only time the melta bomb comes out ahead is against stationary vehicles. The meltagun is also AP1 while the bomb isn't.

Yes Guard blobs have a lot of wounds before they start losing important models, but there isn't a need to blow up vehicles in your own face if shooting them is just as workable. I've had plenty of games where it's the last 6-7 guys from a 40 man blob that stagger onto the objective, so saving 5-6 guys by shooting a vehicle instead of blowing it up with melta bombs can be important.

You are right that you should be able to avoid things like Walkers and Wraithlords in the movement phase. Such units are slow, and the Guard should have plenty of shots to deal with them if they are a priority target. This is why I don't spend points on meltabombs just in case I get charged by a Dreadnought. I just have to, as you said, kill the Commissar and shoot the unit next turn, or bog that unit down the rest of the game depending on the circumstances.

[ElCheezus]

A single power weapon does .33 wounds to a T5 or T6 opponent on the charge. The Meltagun does .42. So putting a couple meltas into a monstrous creature or unit of Plague Marines or another similarly touch opponent before you charge can significantly shorten the amount of time you are going to be stuck in combat. Winning the combat sooner opens up a whole range of new options. BS3 on the meltas isn't great, but with three or four in a unit, it's worthwhile to give the bring it down order. I've killed three Daemon Princes in a game with a 30 man Melta/power weapon blob before because I shot the crap out of them before I charged, so I wasn't stuck in combat forever.

Meltaguns are also much better than meltabombs at killing vehicles. If you're in range to charge, you're in 2d6 melta range. A meltagun will hit just as often as a sergeant with a melta bomb against a vehicle that moved 6". It will hit a lot more if that vehicle moved over 6". The only time the melta bomb comes out ahead is against stationary vehicles. The meltagun is also AP1 while the bomb isn't.

Meltaguns have benefits, I won't deny that. What I don't put stock in is their economy. If you're spending the last 20 or 30 points, I don't have a problem with Meltaguns in a blob. Like you say, they kill things even with a crap BS. However, in terms of the minimum equpment a blob must have, I don't list any special weapons, but I do put meltabombs. Meltaguns are better than bombs against vehicles, that's true. They also cost fully twice as much. That's what I consider them better. Both would be welcome, to be sure.

There's also a situation I'd like to mention with Meltaguns that wouldn't happen with Meltabombs. If you shoot a Meltagun at a tank, you have to assault the tank. If it explodes and either wasn't a transport or the dudes are now too far away, you can't assault that turn. With meltabombs, you can assault (getting 6" of movement) or even multi-assault to tie up other units. The movement from assaulting can be important to blobs, since getting around can take some time if your run rolls aren't too hot. Also, the point of power blobs is to get into assault, so losing the opportunity because 1/10th of your guys decided to shoot instead kinda seems like a waste.

More on topic- I think the list as posted has a good number of ways to deal with vehicles, so spending 40 points on BS 3 meltas would be a waste if there are other places to spend them. And actually, if there were 40 points left over, I'd look for 5 more for a Priest. Rerolls are fantastic (especially on MeltaBombs ). An eviscerator is better (again, if there are points)

[ColonelElibas]

The problem with Meltas in Guard is not from BS; it's from the actual Guardsman. Having a platoon command consisting of four meltas is risky because it doesn't have the benefit of Combined Squads, so they can be picked out individually before they get there.

At Toughness Three and a +4 Cover Save from the mob, the lowly melta-toting Guardsman isn't exactly stalwart.

Melta Bombs are more effective with Veterans and their Demolitions doctrine, especially when a Priest is attatched. Not to mention the demolition charge is a nice last ditch effort (and fun at that).

How I see armor killing power in Guard is very specific. Usually Melta's are effective in independent Platoon Squads or sprinkled into a Company Command Squad. Melta Bombs are really good in Veteran Squads since all the veterans are equipped with them AND have the demo charge.

Las Cannon Teams and Leman Russ Vanquisher's are more potent than 'walk-across-the-field' meltas too.