12-22-2010, 06:23 AM #1
Home made Apocalypse Data sheets.
I am a huge fan of Apocalypse, and have designed a number of them for Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, and Sisters of Battle. Although they are not of a high quality because I only us Microsoft Word, I do make a nice set of rules, that most people like.
I have designed a new datasheet. This one is for Fulgrim Daemon Primarch, and it has been altered a few times because of feedback from others (generally that it was way too powerful for the game, even with the high points cost.
I am posting it here to get even more feedback so that it will become something that is not too powerful, yet has the abilities and stats that Fulgrim should have access to.
Fulgrim Daemon Primarch of the Emperor’s Children – 200 points + 700 points for Fulgrim + cost of Greater Daemons and daemon princes.
Formation consists of Fulgrim Daemon Primarch and between 2 and 12 Daemon Princes of Slaanesh and/or Greater Daemons of Slaanesh with daemonic flight that act as a body guard retinue
The formation gets the following Strategic Assets: Grand Pavane of Slaanesh, In addition, models from the formation may assault on the turn they deep strike.
The formation only rolls 1D6 for scatter for deep striking.
All Daemon Princes and Keepers of Secrets must take Pavane of Slaanesh.
The formation gets a +1 to its reserve rolls to see if it comes on.
Fulgrim Daemon Primarch – 700 Points
Daemon, Monstrous creature, Fearless, Fearsome, daemonic flight, the swords of pleasure, lash of domination, soporific musk, aura of aquiescence, living icon, armour of living souls, master of sorcery.
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
10 5 7 8 6 9 5+3 10 2/3+
Swords of Pleasure: these are 3 Daemon Swords that Fulgrim has complete mastery over. They add +3 to the number of attacks he has in close combat. These attacks cause instant death and re-roll to wound rolls.
Lash of Domination: this is a daemon infused whip. Any enemy in base contact with Fulgrim lose 1 of their attacks to a minimum of 1.
Armour of Souls: Fulgrim’s artificer armour has now been corrupted by the powers of Chaos. It absorbs the soul of each enemy he slays in close combat. The armour confers a 2+ armour save and a 3+ invulnerable save. Any wounds saved by the armour deliver an automatic strength 3, AP (-) wound on the unit/character that attacked Fulgrim.
Living Icon: Fulgrim counts as an icon for daemon summoning.
Fearsome: enemy within 12” are at -2 to their LD, and must pass a LD test in order to assault him.
Mastery of Sorcery: Fulgrim has the following Chaos Gifts – pavane of Slaanesh, breath of chaos, gift of chaos.
What do you think of it?
12-23-2010, 08:08 AM #2
With the amount of replies compared to the amount of people who have viewed this thread so far, I would have to say no one has a problem with this datasheet.
Post some of your own datasheets, and maybe we can get an exchange of datasheets going.
I have a really nice one based on a night lords bike formation, with a special character/ chaos lord leading them.
12-23-2010, 10:03 AM #3
What are you basing everything on did u have an exsample, I dont know about the 2/3 save makes it preatty buffy and have 9 wounds on top of that he woul dbe able to go though a anything but I have never made a data sheet before so.
12-23-2010, 03:32 PM #4
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
I think Fulgrim is a bit over the top. I'm not sure that the points to power ratio is balanced, but the abilities compared to fluff and other comparable models seems rather strange. These are the items I have an issue with:
1. Toughness 8. His Toughness seems a bit high considering that it is two points higher than a standard Daemon Prince, and comparable to a Wraithlord. I would think that being one point better than other Daemon Princes would be appropriate.
2. 2+/3++ Save. Combined with his high toughness, this Save will make him able to shrug off almost anything other than Destroyer weapon wounds. It also doesn't fit the fluff. The Mark of Tzeentch only grants a 4+ Invulnerable on a Standard Daemon Prince. Fulgrim is a Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, which would mean he is faster, not magically protected. However, with the Armour of Souls fluff, I would think that a 2+ (it used to be Artificer Armour) / 4++ (beacuse of the Souls and the fact that Fulgrim is even more powerful) would be more appropriate. Also, I would lean toward the armour being spikey, so each model attacking Fulgrim takes a S3 AP- hit on a 3+. With your current Toughness and Save values, not only will it be very difficult for any model to even wound Fulgrim in the first place, but any wounds that they do manage to cause are much more likely to bounce right back on them.
3. Initiative 9. This seems rather excessive. This makes this giant Daemon Prince faster than almost every other model in the game.
4. Swords of Pleasure. I would change these a bit, mostly for fluff reasons. First, Fulgrim is a Daemon Prince, but Daemon Weapons have full fledged Daemons bound in them, so I think they should still have abilities closer to those of standard Daemon Weapons. I'm thinking give Fulgrim 3 base Attacks, and then each Sword grants +1D3 additional attacks. If any two of the dice come up 1, then Fulgrim must make a Save per the normal Daemon Weapon rules.
5. Lash of Domination. Fluff-wise, I would think it is exceptionally difficult to use a Lash and Swords at the same time, but apparantly Tyranids can do it, so why not Fulgrim? I would change the wording a bit to make it more precise. Try, "Each enemy model in base contact with Fulgrim loses 1 Attack, to a minimum of 1."
6. +1 to Reserves. This is for Apocalypse, right? There aren't typically Reserves rolls for Apocalypse. Is there something for Daemons of Chaos that would change this?
7. Retinue. Not only is Fulgrim nearly invulnerable on his own, but he has a Retinue of Greater and Lesser Daemons? Why? At least let the opponent have a small chance of wounding him in Close Combat. The Unit will still protect him against Shooting. Just make the Daemons form a special Unit to which Fulgrim must be Joined in Reserve.
One final thought to make sure that Fulgrim isn't too over the top. He is a Daemon Prince, elevated from a Primarch and granted blessings by Slaanesh. A Greater Daemon of Slannesh is a direct manifestation of the power of Slaanesh. Fluff-wise, I don't think that Fulgrim would ever exceed the power (i.e. stats) of a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh, even when elevated to full Greater Daemon status. I don't have my Daemons codex to hand to check how your proposed stats compare to those of a Greater Daemon, so I just wanted to mention it.
12-23-2010, 03:35 PM #5
ws = 10, bs = 5, str = 7, tgh = 8, wnd = 5, init = 9, attk = 5+3, ld =10 sv = 2/3+.
The good armour save and decent invul save represent the fact that Fulgrim is a daemon primarch, not just a daemon prince. His stats were suppose to be amazing to begin with. He was suppose to be better than Space marine captains like Lysander and Marnius Calgar, before he was changed into daemon form. The gods wold have improved and corrupted him for their purposes. Therefore I kept the artificer armour, and, since he will the target of so many heavy weapon attacks, I gave him the 3+ invul save. I increased his cost to 700 points to compensate for his bufffiness.
What I based it on was combination of the Angron Daemon primarch datasheet which is very easy to kill off because of his toughness 6, which I think is too weak for him when compared to the Necron C'tan stats, and, the Forgeworld Daemonlord Zarakynel. who's stats still make it able to be killed with heavy weapons, but not by defensive weapons like bolters. I then gave him a bodyguard similar to the Angron datasheet.
The other rules I added from different datasheets like the Masques grand pavane of slaanesh and characters like lucius the eternal and his soul sucking armour. The rule that ignores the daemonic assault rule, comes from the outriders of the brazen host and fateweaver's council of despair datasheets. I included a 200 point cost for the formation's special rules to adjust for this.
I thought people would probably disagree with giving the keeper of secrets daemonic flight, in which case I would change it to include just daemon princes as a body guard.
It might be a bit too much, hence the request for feedback.
12-23-2010, 03:59 PM #6
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Plymouth, England
Why don't you just give him feel no pain while we're at it?
You can't say "he's the target of loads of firepower so i'll make him harder". Or i could write my own data sheet....my tanks attract a lot firepower, so they now get a 2++ rerollable save!
C'tan are probably about to get harder, so using their toughness to compare with is just wrong. Otherwise your saying this chaos infused super human i stronger than a avatar of the god....the Eldar avatar is only T5/6. Angron is a lower toughness...but he takes a retinue of bloodthirsters to soak it up a bit
Remember...he is jsut a human with chaos infusion...he shouldn't be better than the best greater demon in that god selection.
You've fallen into the very easy pitfall of data sheet writting...you've made him very powerful cos that what you've wanted and not considered his balence in the gameAutarch, Shas'o, Chaos Lord and Decadant Lord of the Webway. And a Doctor!
12-23-2010, 05:16 PM #7
I think it was Dakkadakka that was doing rules for all the primarchs, and this is what they came up with for Fulgrim:
Pts WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
380 7 6 5 5 4 6 5 10 2+/4++
Wargear: Fireblade, Legendary Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Gleaming Armour, Frag and Krak Grenades
Special Rules: Primarch, Phoenician, Narcisistic Role Model
Fireblade: Relic Blade that causes 2 wounds on a wound roll of 6
Gleaming Armour: Provides a 2+ save and a 4+ invulnerable save
Narcisistic Role Model: If Fulgrim is reduced to 0 wounds, every Emperor's Children squad must make a morale test (Even if fearless or would normally pass moral checks) If failed, the unit is pinned and counts as leadership 7 for the rest of the game
Phoenician: Emperor's Children units may re-roll Moral checks and regroup when within 6" of the enemy
Primarch special rules:
Special Rules: Inderpentant Character, And They Shall Know No Fear, Combat Tactics, Rites Of Battle, Eternal Warrior, Fearless
Legendary Weapons: The weapon in question is the pinnacle of engineering in the Imperium. You may re-roll any failed to hit rolls.
These rules are based of the offical rules for Angron that where released by GW.
12-23-2010, 05:38 PM #8
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
apparently most people commenting have no sense of fluff...
there are some fluff pieces that suggest the "stock" primarch without any chaos buffs is better than a greater deamon (was it leman russ or angron who broke a bloodthirsters back over his knee?). therefore it is only right that the end product is better than a greater deamon.
for a starters we should think about what deamonhood grants you. look and compare a deamon prince to say a chaos sorceror.
my codex says the upgrade is as following: +2WS, +2S, +1T, +1W, +1A, Daemonic, for the cost of +10%.
next I think we should try to find out how a primarch would start out. the problemativ thing here is to destile the primarch down to a tabletop niveou as much as the marines are toned down (we dont want to produce a celoloit primarch!).
For this part I'd take the comparison that a primarch is to a space marine what a space marine is to a mortal man. This would result in a +1WS, +1BS, +1S, +1T, +1I. cost increase is hard to determine as the armor and boltgun are allways included as well (comparing scouts to veterans with plate armor is a +30% increase. it is a bad example as the scouts have worse WS/BS but I think to completely discard the boltgun and infiltrate is a fair exchange to get even).
so now that we have something to work off we need a model that best reflects they archetype of fulgrim. As far as reading his book from horus heresy goes I'd put him in the place of a space marine captain (and not sorceror of some kind).
so going with that start and adding the total boni of +3WS, +1BS, +3S, +2T, +1W, +1I, +1A and +40% we turn out to be:
WS9 BS6 S7 T6 W4 I6 A4+1 3+/4++ for 140 points.
as this still seams very weak (and at same time underpriced for its stats!) well try improve him. my first idea would be to take the "lysander upgrade". compare lysander to a normal space marine captain with the same equipment and you find out that he is only 30 points more expensive but gets +1A, +1W, eternal warrior and a s10 thunder hammer (so basically +1S to his profile).
this brings us to the following:
WS9 BS6 S8 T6 W5 I6 A5+1 3+/4++ for 170 points.
now I start to like the statline (but still the cost is hilarious so he needs some expensive wargear to make him more bling bling ).
lets start with both artificer armor and a stormshield (reflecting his deamonic infused armor) for twice the price of what a normal captain would pay.
WS9 BS6 S8 T6 W5 I6 A5 2+/3++ for 230 points. include wings for hive tyrant price and hes 290 points.
now he wants to get his deamonic powers from fath-mother slanesh.
first we take an improved mark of slanesh (taken from lucius which grants +1WS and +1I compared to chaos general) for +10 (twice the the normal price of the mark for an additional allmost useless WS10).
next he wants a fancy deamon weapon. I'll go and borrow zarakniels sword but tone it down to the new trend in dealing with invulnarability saves. so it will grant +1d6 attacks, cause instant death (slanesh deamon weapon normal) but also force to reroll invulnerability saves. as the profile we reached now is more powerfull and we dont want a silly deamon weapon rebelling against a deamon primarch I'd cost it with a hefty 150 points.
as you also want him to have some funny daemon powers I'll buy for 50 points the 3 slanesh powers pavane, soporific musk and aura of aquiescence.
so in the end we have the following:
WS10 BS6 S8 T6 W5 I7 A5+d6 LD10 SV2+/3++ 500 Points
Type: Monstrous Jump Infantry
Special Rules: Daemonic, Deepstrike, Eternal Warrior,
Daemonic Powers: Pavane of Slanesh, Soporific musk, Aura of Aquiescence
Wargear: Armor of Souls (2+ Armor and 3+ Invulnerability), Sword of the Lascious (grants +1d6 attacks, does not rebell on a 1, causes instant death and forces a reroll on invulnerability saves taken against it).
I think at this point giving living icon and fearsome for free isnt any problems.
Key features comparing this to yours is that it doesnt suddenly have a toughness value of a biotitan (t6 and 2+ armor save is enough to make him virtually immune to boltguns and the like. ever seen a E4 carnifex go trough a necron army? well let me say that 2+ and t6 is enough to survive a LOT of s4 fire ) while only haveing a puny strenght of 7. haveing strenght lower than toughness belongs to nurgle and orks but not to super-evil-superheroes of slanesh.
the key t6 also gives your oponents hope and allows for the 3++ to be not OP. remember that it takes a plasmagun a 5+ to wound a t8 model (and get past your 2+ armor to the 3++) and even a lascannon is reduced to wounding on 3+! I think this variant is more fair and can be easily adapted for all the other deamon primarchs (take away the -1WS and -1I from the slanesh mark and replace for what fits and adapt the deamon weapon as you like. maybe also take away the 3++ from armor to differentiate a bit. just some rough ideas: khorne +2A, deamon weapon grants +2d6 and every "6" to hit gives another attack, nurgle +1T, +1W, FnP, deamon weapon doubles wounds and is poison 2+, tzeentch would also get a 3++ from his mark and get some improved shooting powers as well as some counter-psyker stuff. tzeentch might be the hardest).
on your formation: I think paying 200 points to let a hoard of big deamons deepstrike with 1d6 scatter AND assoult after deepstriking is not only underpriced but very, very OP (in such a way that you cannot price it well). it either needs a hughe dissadvantage or lose the assoult after DS. what I could see is that you only scatter 1d6 and your pavane is improved so that it can pull a unit into melee with you (that is harder to pull off as its only 1d6 from pavane and not the guaranteed 6" from charge) and the unit gets the charge bonus.
12-23-2010, 11:36 PM #9
Xas, your stats are slightly out.
GW's offical rules for Angron as a Daemon prince are:
WS 10 BS 6 S 7 T 6 W 5 I 6 A 6 LD 10 Sv 4+/5++
Monstrous Creature, Daemon, Furious Charge, Iron Hide, Daemonic Flight, Angron's Black Blade (Master crafed close combat weapon that causes instant death), Roar of Hate (Enemies within 12" of Angron reduce leadership by one)
If you wanted power order from Marines to Daemons, it basically goes: Captain, Chapter Master, Primarch, Daemon Prince, Greater Daemon. The instance you talk about where a greater daemon was killed by a primarch was Sanguinius, after the greater daemon in question wiped out a huge amount of blood angels in front of Sanguinius and basically started the Black Rage.
12-24-2010, 01:21 AM #10
O.K. , I'll take the feedback and rework the datasheet to something less "OMG run" even for apocalypse to something others will perhaps want to use, or have a go at taking on.
If what you said about C'tan getting even harder, you will see peolpe refusing to play against Necron armies that use them. I really hate C'tan. With their high toughness and strength, and a weapon that ignores armour and invul saves, it can destroy an army on its own. Add to this the low points cost for a c'tan and even I have refused to play against one with my chaos army back when everyone was using them all the time. I suppose I had an anti-c'tan model for apocalypse in mind when I was designing it.
As to the retinue, change it to a group of daemon princes that he can join, which is similar to Angron's datasheet. Keep the stats for Fulgrim close to those of Angron, with less attacks, and a higher intiiative, but with armour 3+/4++. As to gifts, I would say use soporific musk, boon of mutation, daemonic flight, iron hide, aura of aquiescence, pavane of slaanesh, and daemonic gaze. Make it so he can use only one attack - such as pavane of slaanesh, daemonic gaze, or boon of mutation per turn.
I might change the deep strike rule for the datasheet so that Fulgrim deploys first and the others are placed within 6" of him, which I saw on another datasheet. I would still keep the whip, but reword it as recommended, and keep the living icon and fearsome rule. then all the formatoins needs is the grand pavane of slaanesh strategic asset. The cost for Fulgrim would be 500 pts, the cost for the formaton 100 pts, and the cost for the daemon princes, as per the gifts, though they must be given daemonic flight.