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  1. #11
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    I don't understand most of the rules (I don't play Daemons, nor have I fought them), but this looks awesome! A truly fearsome Death Star of Pleasure, Slaanesh would be proud. ^-^

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    You can't say "he's the target of loads of firepower so i'll make him harder". Or i could write my own data sheet....my tanks attract a lot firepower, so they now get a 2++ rerollable save!
    Well, Apocalypse does give people the freedom to do whatever they want, as long as their opponent is in agreement. If an opponent wanted to try fighting tanks with invulnerable saves as a challenge there's nothing wrong with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    C'tan are probably about to get harder, so using their toughness to compare with is just wrong. Otherwise your saying this chaos infused super human i stronger than a avatar of the god....the Eldar avatar is only T5/6. Angron is a lower toughness...but he takes a retinue of bloodthirsters to soak it up a bit

    Remember...he is jsut a human with chaos infusion...he shouldn't be better than the best greater demon in that god selection.
    You've just contradicted yourself there. A Daemon Primarch is not 'just a human infused with Chaos', he is a super-human who has been elevated to the rank of Daemon Prince (though 'Daemon Primarch is more appropriate). And I would imagine that a Daemon Primarch would be tougher than an Avatar of Khaine, as the Avatars are 1) fragments of a god, and 2) not legendary characters (legendary characters always seem to receive a buff just because they are living legends).

    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    You've fallen into the very easy pitfall of data sheet writting...you've made him very powerful cos that what you've wanted and not considered his balence in the game
    I think this person has considered game balance with this datasheet, but you have missed the fact that the creator is asking for feedback, and therefore probably doesn't consider this datasheet finished. Datasheets and all other fan content in Warhammer and 40K require lots of playtesting, you could have just reminded them to playtest it thoroughly as you feel it is a bit overpowered.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemonette666 View Post
    O.K. , I'll take the feedback and rework the datasheet to something less "OMG run" even for apocalypse to something others will perhaps want to use, or have a go at taking on.

    If what you said about C'tan getting even harder, you will see peolpe refusing to play against Necron armies that use them. I really hate C'tan. With their high toughness and strength, and a weapon that ignores armour and invul saves, it can destroy an army on its own. Add to this the low points cost for a c'tan and even I have refused to play against one with my chaos army back when everyone was using them all the time. I suppose I had an anti-c'tan model for apocalypse in mind when I was designing it.
    The c'tan improvement was one of the earliest necron rumours, dunno if its still present. They originally said (through the internet mill of course) that C'tan were being completly pulled from the codex in their current form, and reintroduced as gargantuan creatures for Apoc only. But don't know if thats still present

    Balencing fluff and gameplay is incredibly hard, and i always like it when someone takes the chance of doing soemthing. But it will take an age of playtesting to get things balenced. As for Primarch vs Demon Prince, consider Skarbrand. A bloodthirster so powerful he was actually able to damage (ever so slightly) the armour of Khorne himself....before getting dropkicked to oblivion by the blood god.....and look at his stats!

    Yes he has to be hard as Adamantine Nails, but he has to be killable or no one will want to play against him. Even the greater demons, a Warlord titan are killable...only exception to this is Nid Biotitan...which is just broken cos of its rules under the new codex....
    Autarch, Shas'o, Chaos Lord and Decadant Lord of the Webway. And a Doctor!
    http://drlove42.blogspot.com/

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrLove42 View Post
    The c'tan improvement was one of the earliest necron rumours, dunno if its still present. They originally said (through the internet mill of course) that C'tan were being completly pulled from the codex in their current form, and reintroduced as gargantuan creatures for Apoc only. But don't know if thats still present
    Let us hope that if they are being reclassified as gargantuan creatures, that their points value will be more than the 380 or 300 points they cost now, and closer to 700 or 800 points each. Something like zarakynel or some of the other daemon lords. I just hope they do not give them mass points, like the tyranid gargantuan creatures. That would make them too powerful.

    I would have to get all the D weapons online to combat the C'tan and monoliths if it came to that.

    Thanks for the feedback, I will be re-working the datasheet after Christmas, and have another go with it.
    I will post another datasheet I think is almost complete, and I have gotten good feedback on from other gamers. As before feel free to give some feedback, and use it for your own games.

  5. #15
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    This is the my datasheet for a Night Lords Bike based datasheet. I based it on hurons hounds, but I wanted something to compliment the Night Lords force I am building. It has some rules that suit the Night Lords background, with a couple added to allow them to work in apocalypse. The retrofitted Chaos Bike for the lord was just an experiment I added to allow me to use the doom rider model. I plan to change the doom rider models head to that of a night lord, but since I have 2 doom riders, I wil still have an unmodified collectors model.

    Enjoy the datasheet.

    [U]Night Lords – Terror Knights, Riders of the Apocalypse. 200 points + cost of models.

    The Night Lords are masters of terror and speed. Their once mighty legion has been split into many company sized warbands. Former Captain Tobin Karnaxis commanded the Night lords Scout bike/ fast strike Bike company. His wealth of experience and controlled ferocity inspire his warriors to almost insane charges. Showing riding skills that would put the White Scars to shame they ride down their foes before slaughter them.

    Formation:
    1 - Chaos Lord mounted on Chaos Bike can be retrofitted with a Twin Linked Melta Gun for + 10 Pts, and any upgrades as per codex chaos space marines.

    3 + squads of Night lords Chaos Marines Bikes – minimum 5 bikes per squad, plus upgrades allowed for chaos SM bikers in codex Chaos Space Marine except icons -see below.

    Special rules:

    Squads can only carry an icon of chaos glory – Chaos is worshipped as a whole by the Night Lords.

    Squads must start within 12” of the Chaos Lord, or if coming in from reserves, arrive within 12” of the point the lord entered the board.

    The Chaos Lord and all Squads get Night Fighting, Scout, Infiltrate, and Skilled Rider universal special rules.

    The formation also gets the Flank March Strategic Asset.

    Ride the Wind: Once only per game, the Chaos lord can use his riding skills and ferocity to inspire the formation to ride like the wind. – When “Ride like the Wind” is used, any squad with a model in 6” of the Chaos Lord can assault that turn if it Turbo Boosts. Dangerous terrain test are taken if charging the enemy through cover.

    This is the formatoin I am building up at the moment. 200 + 160 + 390 + 390 + 395 = 1535 Points

    1 Chaos Lord mounted on Chaos Bike (30) retrofitted with Twin Linked Melta Gun (10), Power Weapon, Personal Icon, Bolt Pistol, Power Armour, Frag and Krak Grenades, Independent Character, Fearless, Biker. 160 Points

    1 Squad of 10 Chaos Marine Bikers, Bikers, Power Armour, Frag + krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon, Chaos Bike, 1 x Melta Gun, 1 x Flamer, 1 x Icon of Chaos Glory, Exalted Champion with Power Weapon and Melta Bombs. 390 Points

    1 Squad of 10 Chaos Marine Bikers, Bike, Power Armour, Frag + krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon, Chaos Bike, 1 x Melta Gun, 1 x Flamer, 1 x Icon of Chaos Glory, Exalted Champion with Power Weapon and Melta Bombs. 390 Points

    1 squad of 10 Chaos Marine Bikers, Bike, Power Armour, Frag + krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon, Chaos Bike, 1 x Melta Gun, 1 x Flamer, 1 x Icon of Chaos Glory, Exalted Champion with Power Fist. 395 Points

    Designed by Deborah Harrison
    Adapted from the Hounds of Huron Datasheet

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gir View Post
    Xas, your stats are slightly out.

    GW's offical rules for Angron as a Daemon prince are:

    WS 10 BS 6 S 7 T 6 W 5 I 6 A 6 LD 10 Sv 4+/5++
    Monstrous Creature, Daemon, Furious Charge, Iron Hide, Daemonic Flight, Angron's Black Blade (Master crafed close combat weapon that causes instant death), Roar of Hate (Enemies within 12" of Angron reduce leadership by one)

    500pts.

    If you wanted power order from Marines to Daemons, it basically goes: Captain, Chapter Master, Primarch, Daemon Prince, Greater Daemon. The instance you talk about where a greater daemon was killed by a primarch was Sanguinius, after the greater daemon in question wiped out a huge amount of blood angels in front of Sanguinius and basically started the Black Rage.
    first: I think GWs "official" rules are the biggest -swearword- since they neutered the CSM codex to the unfluffy wreck it is now. he simply isnt worth the cost compared to something as simple as TWO normal princes and offers nothing special to make this up. hell he isnt even a much better concentration of power (actually he does less dmage than a nurgle prince with warptime).

    second: do you have any fluff references that every joe-deamon prince is stronger than a primarch? I seriously doubt that after reading the horus heresy novels up to - including "A thousand sons". what leman russ does to the thousand sons is so much more brutal than what any deamon prince could do and even a greater deamon would struggle to achieve. even then I wasnt giving them a hughe boost as you can re-read and only did a simple man->marine upgrade.

    thirdly: going from captain to chapter master only gives you a 25 point expensive orbital bombardement that would be totally unfluffy for a deamon primarch.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xas View Post
    first: I think GWs "official" rules are the biggest -swearword- since they neutered the CSM codex to the unfluffy wreck it is now. he simply isnt worth the cost compared to something as simple as TWO normal princes and offers nothing special to make this up. hell he isnt even a much better concentration of power (actually he does less dmage than a nurgle prince with warptime).

    second: do you have any fluff references that every joe-deamon prince is stronger than a primarch? I seriously doubt that after reading the horus heresy novels up to - including "A thousand sons". what leman russ does to the thousand sons is so much more brutal than what any deamon prince could do and even a greater deamon would struggle to achieve. even then I wasnt giving them a hughe boost as you can re-read and only did a simple man->marine upgrade.

    thirdly: going from captain to chapter master only gives you a 25 point expensive orbital bombardement that would be totally unfluffy for a deamon primarch.
    When asked what sources I used as a guide for designing Fulgrim, I said I based his stats on Zarakynel Daemon Lord, and that I did not want to use the Angron stats fromt eh GW datasheet, as i tought his toughness was too weak for a Daemon Primarch.

    Well enough of Fulgrim, I will be working out a new datasheet after Christmas. Enjoy the Night Lords datasheet. An addition to the Terror Knights - Riders of the Apocalypse datasheet is that the Chaos Lord can not take marks of chaos.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xas View Post
    first: I think GWs "official" rules are the biggest -swearword- since they neutered the CSM codex to the unfluffy wreck it is now. he simply isnt worth the cost compared to something as simple as TWO normal princes and offers nothing special to make this up. hell he isnt even a much better concentration of power (actually he does less dmage than a nurgle prince with warptime).

    second: do you have any fluff references that every joe-deamon prince is stronger than a primarch? I seriously doubt that after reading the horus heresy novels up to - including "A thousand sons". what leman russ does to the thousand sons is so much more brutal than what any deamon prince could do and even a greater deamon would struggle to achieve. even then I wasnt giving them a hughe boost as you can re-read and only did a simple man->marine upgrade.

    thirdly: going from captain to chapter master only gives you a 25 point expensive orbital bombardement that would be totally unfluffy for a deamon primarch.
    1st: Look at the Chaos Space Marine codex as Codex: Black Legion, and it's perfectly fluffy.

    On angron: I agree, he's over priced, but it's power is pretty much spot on for what it should be.

    2nd: Game is an abstraction. An'ggrath is supposed to be one of the most powerful creatures in the universe next to the chaos gods themselves, but goes down REALLY easily in an apoc game.

    3rd: See above, it's an abstraction. You can't really look at the generic chapter master for the proper comparison, you have to look at the likes of Calgar And Dante. Basically, Mephiston is a good stat baseline for a primarch.

  9. #19

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    gir: I did end up useing lysander as an intermediate state (clearly stated in my buildup) but I havent thought of Mephiston. This might be a good idea to try out (and as he is hard as nails might even jsutify more badass stats) once I feel like doing it.


    666: I like that datasheet but it seams you didnt change much from hurons hounds other than the fluff? dont know them from spot but the 200pts tag for assoulting after boosting was the center stones I remember from them as well.

    10pts for the meltagun on the bike might be a bit cheap (it is 10pts for a combi-melta on the chaos lord so this should cost 20pts but thats a minor thing in apoc).

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xas View Post
    666: I like that datasheet but it seams you didnt change much from hurons hounds other than the fluff? dont know them from spot but the 200pts tag for assoulting after boosting was the center stones I remember from them as well.

    10pts for the meltagun on the bike might be a bit cheap (it is 10pts for a combi-melta on the chaos lord so this should cost 20pts but thats a minor thing in apoc).
    Many of my datasheets, except the Fulgrim one stuck close to those that they were based on, but with a themed twist to them.

    With the Terror Knights formation, I liked the turbo boost assault rule, so I kept it. The other fluff such as limiting them to unaligned icons and marks, night fighting, skilled riding, scout and infiltrate, I added to make them more of a Night Lords bike force. I thought an extra 100 points should have covered it. The Flank March and the turbo boost assault rules cost 100 points in the hounds of huron datasheet, so I went with that cost as a guide.

    The 10 points for replacing a combi-bolter with a combi melta, well 1 worked it off a bolter costs 5 points in the wargear list, while a melta gun costs 10. Since lords do not pay twice the cost of troops for weapon upgrades anymore, I thought it was fine. I only included that option so I could make a conversion of the Doom Rider, and liked the idea of a bike mounted combi-melta in the game. I had originaly written it in as a Multi-Melta, but 2 people told me Chaos can not get multi meltas, except on dreadnoughts or obliterators, so it should be a melta gun.

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