GW issues profit warning..

[weeble1000]

Hmmm circumstancial at best perhaps, but I don't know anyone personally (i.e. actual acquaintences rather then people online) who did'nt get into the hobby (regardless of whether they still play GW games, other games or at all) except through the B&M GW stores.

This doesn't really mean much as it's just anecdotal, but now that you mentioned how people get into the wargame, I thought it was a little bit amusing considering my opinions about Games-Workshop.

I actually got into the wargame by playing the Vassal 40K mod. I was very much into 40K for a long time before then with the novels, rpgs, etc. but I didn't think that I would enjoy the wargame until I gave it a no commitment try on Vassal.

[DrLove42]

Even HMV one of the ftse 100 firms struggled.

Think struggled is an understatment...they were like 40% down this time last year! They're being forced to close about 600 stores nationwide!

The only company thats done overly well is apple, who made $6 billion profit in the 3 months before christmas...

[Aldramelech]

Hmmm circumstancial at best perhaps, but I don't know anyone personally (i.e. actual acquaintences rather then people online) who did'nt get into the hobby (regardless of whether they still play GW games, other games or at all) except through the B&M GW stores. The UK does'nt have a large indy B&M store presense.

In the UK at least I think it's arguable not only does it insulate them from competitors, but it actively creates a good portion of the market, i.e. the presense of the stores is the reason many UK gamers are there at all.

Well you've met me

I started wargaming playing 15mm Medieval

[Col.Gravis]

This doesn't really mean much as it's just anecdotal, but now that you mentioned how people get into the wargame, I thought it was a little bit amusing considering my opinions about Games-Workshop.

I actually got into the wargame by playing the Vassal 40K mod. I was very much into 40K for a long time before then with the novels, rpgs, etc. but I didn't think that I would enjoy the wargame until I gave it a no commitment try on Vassal.

I do recognise it's anecdotal, but I think some people do fail to recognise that a without GW's store presense GW would'nt be such a big fish in the hobby industry. Remove the B&M stores in the UK and what exposure is there left?

It's not something you can view from our perspective, you need to be average joe blogs who has no idea about the hobby, and is probably a teen.

Well you've met me

I started wargaming playing 15mm Medieval

Yep Aldramelech, you are the exception to every rule!

[weeble1000]

I don't live in England, but I have trouble imagining that in this day and age GW needs to maintain brick and mortar stores to draw new customers into the hobby. I've lived in several major metropolitan areas in the US and I've never seen a GW hobby center, much less gone into one. It also doesn't seem like that's the way kids are going to start playing Warhammer.

Wouldn't the internet and easy entry, youth-oriented products like Monsterpocolypse be a better way to draw younger customers into the hobby? I also expect that getting products on the shelves of more commonly patronized stores like Barnes and Noble would be an effective way to increase brand recognition. WotC has D&D all over places like Barnes and Noble and they produce collectible click games, simple board games, card games, and low cost box sets to target a younger crowd. It also seems like the 4th ed artistic style is geared towards being accessible to a younger demographic.

Brick and mortar hobby centers may have been a great idea in 1990, but there's got to be a host of less expensive and more accessible options in today's market. It also seems to me that embracing competition is healthy. GW hobby centers exclude the wider wargaming hobby and those closely associated with it in a way that local gaming stores don't. I'd think that you'd want to have the kids playing Magic sitting at a table next to folks playing 40K or Flames of War. Having a retail location that is exclusive to your products sounds like a fine idea because people there won't be looking at a competitor's products, but you also don't have your competitor's customers being exposed to your products. I guess it's logical to be worried about Privater Press drawing away your customers, but wouldn't you want Privateer Press's customers to branch out into your products?

[Col.Gravis]

The internet is an option for exposure, but is seeing some pictures of product - assuming you either actively search them out (unlikely unless it's something your already aware of) or are presented with them in a suitable way - going to compare to seeing some nicely painted models, and then being offered a demo game in store when your under 18? The net is definately cheaper, but I'd question whether it would attract as many as B&M's do without something else.

A store you might walk past, on any given day. In the UK by far a high proportion of significant population centers have GW stores, the largest more then one. I actually work in a school for students in the 11-18 age bracket, I have and do run lunchtime clubs for the students and they're entry point has always been through the GW store directly in the nearest city (about 8 miles away), most of them have no idea there is even an online community such as those on the big forums, few of them even buy online, though the majority are aware of the GW website (though not of competitors).

Would a product aimed more specifically at a younger age group help, quite possibly. To see the return of boxed games in the style of Necromunda or Mordheim, using rules based on the current editions of the core games so they could seamlessly progress to the full core games would be a great move in that respect IMHO. As would actual support and expansion of Space Hulk. That said I guess thats what the core game starters are intended for.

Such complete 'games in a box' would also lend better to other high street chains, where as simply stocking just a few boxes of GW product just does'nt work so well it would seem. Some high street and larger stores such as Hobbycraft do stock small amounts of GW, but usually it seems to be limited to a few core products, often boxes of Space Marines and a few Fantasy regiments, the stores don't give them shelf space. Incidently I'd note I've never seen any direct GW competitor (i.e. Privateer Press, Westwind etc) stocked in any shop that was'nt a dedicated hobby store in this country.

Regarding excluding the wider hobby in B&M stores, for our purposes it would be much better if GW stores stocked more. However if in the UK highstreet they have no visible competition (which they really don't) amongst the target customers in the high street, why risk introducing your customer to another product when as far as they are concerned what you sell is basically the ONLY product?

[DrLove42]

Agree with everything Gravis has said there but i'll by comment to it

The internet alone, or boxes for sale on the shelves of a shop get people into the game.

The shops get people into the Hobby. From teaching people to play (a daunting task to an outsider, would be even worse if there weren't people paid to teach them), to teaching them to paint, introducing people to each other to play against, school holidays events....all that stuff the GW stores do above a standard shop.

That is why they're needed.

P.S As a Brit i've never even seen a Warmachine game player, model or game in my life. Didn't know existed until I came on here. But i do play games outside the standard 40K, with aeronautica and Space Hulk

[Denzark]

So, here we are. After coming on this thread, and stating I didn't think a profit warning meant loss, just less profit, it turns out profits ARE down, to £6.7m (pretax) - but still a profit, and not bad going after the year we have had in the UK.

The given reason to paraphrase GW seems to be change in manning of US stores - it states that Europe did these changes last year and implies a growth in the first half as a result - the second order effect implied is that that manning model is successful and there is no reason why US stores should perform similarly.

I can now happily predict that price DROPS are unlikely as the current marketing strategy seems to be working reasonably well compared to the UK financial climate.

To all the doom-mongers out there, please disappear with your militias back to your underground bunkers in Ohio, normal service is resuming.

[weeble1000]

What works in Britain isn't necessarily what is going to work in the US. My experience and Col. Gravis's experience seem to be polar opposites. I'm not used to seeing GW stores anywhere. A quick look at GW's website tells me why. Games-Workshop has 66 hobby centers in the US. Those 66 hobby centers are in 13 states and pretty much relegated to something like 12 major metropolitan areas.

California: 15 locations in San Francisco and LA
Delaware: 1 location
Illinois: 12 locations in the Chicago area
Maryland: 9 locations in the Baltimore area
Michigan: 2 locations outside Detroit
New Jersey: 1 location outside Philadelphia
New York: 1 location in New York City
Pennsylvania: 1 location
Tennessee: 1 location near Memphis
Texas: 9 locations in Dallas and Houston
Virginia: 3 locations near DC
Washington: 9 locations along I-5
Wisconsin: 2 locations, one near Milwaukee

It’s no wonder I haven't seen a GW hobby center. I've never lived in Chicago, Baltimore, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Dallas, or Houston.

Now if you look at the largest colleges in the US, you get a picture that doesn't exactly line up with the locations of GW hobby centers. New York State, University of Phoenix, Arizona State, Penn State, Florida State, Ohio State, University of Minnesota, and California State are all on the list of the largest colleges in the US. There's no hobby centers in Ohio, Arizona, Florida, or Minnesota. There's only one hobby center in New York City and only one in Pennsylvania. Where I live in Louisiana, I would have to drive at least 8 hours in any direction before I'd reach a GW hobby center.

This is why GW says that it has room to expand in the US. It doesn't have much market presence at all with its hobby centers. And GW is pulling what hobby centers it does have out of high traffic areas like shopping malls and into cheaper, out of the way locations. Unless you lived in one of the six cities I mentioned above, you would have to know where to find a GW hobby center in order to get to one.

If you’re already looking for one, the purpose of the hobby center is basically moot. Everything done at a GW hobby center in order to encourage participation in the hobby can and is done in most local gaming stores in the US. So what purpose are the GW hobby centers in the US serving? What makes a Games-Workshop hobby center in the US different from a local gaming store other than exclusively selling GW products, an inefficient single-employee management system, and a hard sell that focuses on 15 year olds and discourages dedicated veteran players?

I don’t think Games-Workshop is going to be able to turn the American market into a replica of the one its got in Britain, especially considering that its having trouble maintaining the hobby centers it does have in the US. I think the days of the GW hobby center are over, at least in America.

[Denzark]

Weeble

It was better before the whole CHS issue brought you back in from the cold and turned you into a preacher who is 100% certain that GW is the devil and everything it does is wrong. I can't wait for the lawsuit to be disposed of in the hope that the amount of strychnine being drunk in here goes down.

Whilst your analysis may be very interesting, the point that what works this side of the pond may not over there, is slightly moot. The model referred to in the financial report regarding store manning, talks of Continental Europe - not Northern Europe which is I believe what GW brackets the UK market under.

Even if I am wrong, the model is more than just Britain.

At the end of the day the insight that what works in the UK doesn't necessarily work in the US, is probably a bit Shania Twain for the business suits responsible for the millions of profit making company GW - that won't impress them much.

Having declared to all and sundry that now is the time to hit GW when they are down by buying from competitors, it is pretty clear all you will do is take up position 180 degrees opposite from GW or anyone on here that types anything remotely positive about them.

So we might as well not post any more off topic stuff on this thread which, as I summed up, is a non-issue because the profit warning does not represent a company on its knees - I will revisit that opinion as soon as they start making actual losses as opposed to not making what they did the year before.