Will customer action make GW lower prices?

[Old_Paladin]

I do not approve of it when a British company attempts to expand its market share in America.

There, I've trimmed the fat and had you say what you've meant all along.

[MarneusCalgar]

Voted for:

Don't be dense they know we're hooked on plastic crack.

Why??

Because there will always be fans and fanboys who will buy everything GW does, so...

[weeble1000]

Old_Paladin,

I appreciate your point in quoting me out of context, but rest assured that I am not opposed to Games-Workshop's actions and policies simply because it is a British company. The fact that I'm American and Games-Workshop is a British company only serves to make what Games-Workshop is doing that much more offensive to me personally.

You're correct that Games-Workshop's nationality is one of the things that I find offensive about the situation when taken as a whole. You have, however, boiled my argument down to its least significant point. It is an effective way to marginalize what I have said, since you've focused on a single issue that can be used to characterize my entire argument as some sort of nationalistic prejudice.

I will counter that my argument can be boiled down to this single sentence:

Games-Workshop's litigation strategy is to manipulate people into believing that the company owns more than it should by attacking those that cannot defend themselves.

That is what is wrong with what Games-Workshop is doing and it would be wrong regardless of the location of the Company's corporate headquarters or the nationality of its managers. This single issue is the core of everything else that I have argued. Games-Workshop is attempting to take control of as much of the wargaming hobby and industry as possible, regardless of whether it is fair for them to do so and regardless of who it has to hurt in order to make it happen.

This strategy is emblematic of the way that Games-Workshop treats its fans, customers, and competitors. It is emblematic of the poor business sense with which Games-Workshop has been managed. Finally, it is an example of the kind of injustice that can be perpetrated by a large corporation when no one is willing to take a stand against it.

We, as in those that love, enjoy, and participate in the wargaming hobby, have been blessed with an opportunity to take a stand against this type of behavior because Chapterhouse Studios might be willing to put everything on the line in order to stand up to Games-Workshop. Chapterhouse Studios is trying to protect itself, but it is fighting for rights that we should all be able to enjoy and which Games-Workshop has been trampling. I have nothing but respect for the courage that it takes to risk everything that you have built to stand up for something that you believe in.

I believe in it too, and I cannot sit back and let something like this fail because I didn't do anything to help. Games-Workshop is a major player in the wargaming industry and no one individual in this hobby is equipped to stand up to it alone. It is this fact which Games-Workshop has used to manipulate the industry and abuse the hobbyists that participate in it.

We need to work together and we can rally around Chaoterhouse Studios.

[Old_Paladin]

And my problem with your argument is that you turned a blind eye to all the times it actually mattered.

I didn't hear you say anything when GW sent C&D's to fantasy football groups, or when they went after Librarium or Lexicanum. Vassle chose to shut itself down when GW C&D said that the software could be used to play their game and many of the cartoonish images were based on GW models or ideas.


No, instead you've picked a company that directly tries to profit of of GW's ideas and is blantant about it (they've also stolen IP from H.R. Gieger and 20th Century Fox; just to show that that take ideas from more then one company/person).
Chapterhouse does create its own unique items (namely the bonesword and lashwip pieces); but then uses copyrighted or trademarked names and discriptions.

You seem to not have even listened to GW statements, claims or directions for the company.

You say that they are out to dominate the market and crush all compatition. That's wrong. The fact that there are groups like P.P., Wizards or the Coast, battle-tech, Mantic, Avatars of War, etc. proves to can go to many companies of tabletop and miniature gaming. In fact GW has said they are going to castle themselves up and stick to a very limited scope of gaming.

You've even said that GW should be happy that Chapterhouse makes bitz. This is both logically and legally flawd.
1) Chapterhouse loses GW money. It doesn't matter that you have to buy a SpaceMarine to use a chapterhouse shoulder pad; because GW still expects you to buy the 'special' shoulder pads/rhino door/extra armour kits from them or Forgeworld.
2) It's stuff that GW doesn't make. That doesn't matter, it's still their IP. It might be something they are planning to make later, to fill a low sales period. It could be something they want you to buy several kits to custom build. Furthermore; they don't allow people to mimic their IP because GW doesn't want to be sued. If chapterhouse wins on say just the sporepod, then GW releases a similar one later Chapterhouse might be able to go after GW for Artistic theft. (this is why most companies tell you to never send them ideas or that by sending them ideas they get 100% claim and you give up your artistic right).
To end that second part with an example: If you made Halo or Fallout minis for mass sale, Microsoft or Zenimax would sue to into the ground; and you don't get to claim that they never produced tabletop minis so it was fair game (IP doesn't work like that; it's not a 'first through the gate' law).

[weeble1000]

Old_Paladin,

I did not turn a blind eye to all of the other times that Games-Workshop has used this deplorable tactic in the past. I recognized them, disproved of them, and did nothing about it. And as you have so efficiently pointed out, Games-Workshop has done it again and again and again. If nothing is done about it this time, we can expect it to keep happening in the future. I don't think it should ever happen.

As to why I've decided to do something about it this time, I've had enough. I've seen it happen too many times before and I don't want to see it happen again. Everyone has a point at which they cease to look away. I've reached mine and I should hope others in the community have reached theirs as well.

Additionally, the Chapterhouse lawsuit is an opportunity to take a stand in opposition to Games-Workshop's amoral and unjust intimidation. Being presented with an opportunity to fight back is an excellent motivator to take action. Chapterhouse has a very strong legal standing, as most of Games-Workshop's previous victims have had. But unlike many of Games-Workshop's previous victims, Chapterhouse has made it known that it is considering defending itself. This is an opportunity that has not existed before, and if Chapterhouse decides that it is in its best interests to take this case to court, the company will need our support.

You have suggested that my statements about Games-Workshop's intention to control as much of the wargaming industry as possible are erroneous.

I disagree with you. Games-Workshop's legal strategy has been to claim ownership of intellectual property that is so broad and boundless that it covers virtually any aspect of the wargaming industry, and much more than that. That is a direct attempt on the part of Games-Workshop to control as much of the intellectual property related to the industry as possible, and to use those claims, as untested and unfounded as they are, to push potential competitors out of the market. The fact that Games-Workshop has successful competitors does not mean that Games-Workshop is not attempting to control the industry. It just means that the company has not been 100% successful.

In the Chapterhosue complaint alone, Games-Workshop has claimed a copyright on the word "bits" and even the "weapons, methods of waging war,...and how [the armies] look, behave, and function..." (GW v Chapterhouse Complaint paragraphs 13 and 38) That broadly unspecific language is deliberately designed to capture a wealth of intellectual property that can stray as far as Malifaux and Flames of War. Yes, that seems like a ridiculous statement, but it only seems so because Games-Workshop's attempt to claim such broad intellectual property is absurdly unfounded.

The only thing that makes the existence of successful competition to Games-Workshop distressing is the fact that because Games-Workshop is losing market share to companies that are equipped to mount a legal defense, it has focused its wrath on companies, organizations, and individuals that cannot defend themselves in order to eliminate them.

We disagree about strength of Games-Workshop's claimed intellectual property and the legality/morality of Chapterhouse's business. I have very clearly explained my position on this matter and I have explained how copyright and trademark laws work. There is no need for me to reiterate that here. If you want effective refutations of your arguments, please read my other posts. If you do not believe that my arguments refute yours then an impasse has developed and further discussion on this issue would involve us talking past one another.

[Old_Paladin]

Weeble:
You might need to re-read the actual letigation papers; as you make several false statements.

1) Just as you disliked me "taking your words out of context" to make you look ignorant; extend the same beliefs to GW.
The "weapons, methods of waging war, icons, etc... of the armies of the warhammer universe" is how that statment actually reads. Those are not vauge terms that can be applied to anything. It means specifically things like the boltgun, the leman russ battle tank, the imperial guard, the "steel rain" drop-pod assault.

2) They never claimed a copy-right on "bits" they clearly say it is a british term (not a GW term). They point it out to show that it is odd for a foreign company to use such an out of place word (it'd be like a company saying "we're sellin these things like shrimp off tha barbie, faster then the dingo ate yar baby" then being shocked to be associated with Aussies).


You are making as many leaps of association/judgement as you claim GW to be making.
And honestly, it undermines your arguments. It's hard to take you seriously when you jump to conclusions, overinflate the smallest detail, re-invent ideas/claims in order to justify extremes.

You make GW out to be this phantom-monster under the bed, out to take over the world (Of Course!...); and they'll never let anyone stop them or stand in their way.
But the truth is, Chapterhouse is the one and only company I've heard them sue (which actually says something).
There are hundreds of companies that GW never has and never will approach or consider; that have their own IP and can freely compete.
For all their C&D's, they only managed to shut down two sites and remove a couple of books. 99% of people stood up to them and nothing happened. And most people took it at face value (they were reafferming their legitimate copyrights and showing people they would defend them; people knew when GW could impose the ownership of the 'imperial eagle' and when they didn't have a leg to stand on going after 'an eagle. It might not be friendly, but it's business and it gives the world clear definitions.). You look for the sinister in the obvious.

You say that it's GW long term goals that approach the ridiculous, and that in turn makes you make ridiculous claims. Maybe you need to ignore the first for now and focus really hard on the second (because it might be the second factor that is in truth forcing your thoughts about the first claim...

[Gotthammer]

(it'd be like a company saying "we're sellin these things like shrimp off tha barbie, faster then the dingo ate yar baby" then being shocked to be associated with Aussies).

Australians say prawn, not shrimp - Paul Hogan used shrimp to appeal to the US market. I think that's tangentally related.

For all their C&D's, they only managed to shut down two sites and remove a couple of books.

And the sites that shut down (at least TalkBloodBowl.com) didn't need to - they just needed to change their domain names and remove the donations box off the front page. BGG was asked to take down infringing files, but took down everything without getting clarification on what the infringements were. If they'd asked for a speecific list, I severely doubt it would have been every file associated with a GW game.


As for a claim of a monopoly, I'd see GW arguing that:

1) They don't dominate wargaming - they specifically said they're not going into historicals, and that's a huge market (maybe why they're not). There are also numerous competitive rulesets on the market, with large player bases, which GW has done nothing about.


2) They don't monopolise the miniature market - reaper, PP, and the myriad others out there making fantasy/futuristic easily disprove that. Sure, none are as big as GW, but it's nowhere near a monopoly as GW is just for GW games, not producing D&D, superhero, near future or Cthuhlu type minis to cover the entire market.
And depending on how broadly any competition commission takes the miniature business, they might be able to make comparisons to the massive amount of scale model makers, such as Tamia, Airfix, Dragon, Gundam etc.

[Mauglum.]

Hi all.
Irrespective of anything said on this forum or all the others like it.

Games Workshop apears to be losing existing customers faster than it can recruit new customers.

This is why despite constant price rises OVER inflation rate.
GWs revenue remains reasonably static.

2001 to 2010, GW revenue increased at the rate of inflation , (about 35%).
However, over the same period GW incresed retail prices by about 130%!

This is BAD news for GW and its current customers, isnt it?

TTFN

[DarkLink]

[URL="http://bloodofkittens.com/dickmove/2011/01/07/friday-night-internet-fight-round-45/#more-487"]Here's [/URL]an informative and entertaining article on both how uneducated most people are with regards to business, as well as some good stuff about why GW is doing what they're doing buried inbetween the biting comments.

Games Workshop apears to be losing existing customers faster than it can recruit new customers.

You have any numbers to back that up?

This is why despite constant price rises OVER inflation rate.
GWs revenue remains reasonably static.

2001 to 2010, GW revenue increased at the rate of inflation , (about 35%).
However, over the same period GW incresed retail prices by about 130%!

Umm, you do realize that the rate of inflation is 3% in the US, since about forever, while in Europe it's drifted around between 2-3%. 35% is... a little off.

And where did you get that 130% price increase? Are you saying that in 2001, Land Raiders were $24? A unit of Tactical Marines was $16?I wasn't playing back in 2001, but I'm fairly sure that units were a little more expensive than that.

Oh, and a yearly compounding interest, such as inflation, is very, very, very different than a single percentage price increase. In fact, if inflation was really 35%, then 130% price increase would be a huge discount on our part. A yearly increase of 35% would mean that something costing $10 in 2001 would cost $149 in 2010. That's a 1490% increase overall.

This is BAD news for GW and its current customers, isnt it?

If GW really is losing revenue, then yes. Note that GW is actually still making a profit. Their financial statement means that they just aren't making as much as they were expecting to. That is to say; sales are dropping but GW is still in the black. So at this instant, we don't have to worry. But if the trend of dropping sales does continue, then it could become a problem.

And remember, customer disposable income is at a low right now. That means GW's sales are going to be low, no matter what they do.

[weeble1000]

Old_Paladin,

I did not quote the Chapterhouse complaint out of context. I simply quoted the relevant section of it and then provided the paragraph reference. I assumed that by using brackets to replace the word "the" with what the sentence referred to (the armies) that anyone reading the quote would know that "the armies" meant the armies of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 without me having to type all of that out. Clearly, my paragraph reference allowed you to go look it up.

That assertion, even insomuch as it is limited to Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 armies, is incredibly broad and does, in fact, encompass a massive variety of claimed intellectual property that is firmly in the public domain. For example, that claim can clearly be construed to encompass the lasgun. Note that I am not saying that is encompasses the specific sculptural form of a lasgun model. It encompasses a lasgun as a model, drawing, concept, description in novels, how it is used, what happens when someone gets shot by one, etc. etc. A lasgun is a rifle that shoots a laser. That is not an enforceable copyright.

Games-Workshop deliberately worded the complaint to claim intellectual property that is this broad. Games-Workshop is saying that it owns laser rifles. And that's just the lasgun. Consider missile launchers, hover tanks, tanks with tracks, magical swords, spell scrolls, lizard people, catapults, crossbows, or anything else that is related to the weapons and methods of warfare used by any of the armies in the Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 universes.

Games-Workshop does claim a copyright on the word "bits." The complaint alleges that Chapterhouse Studions uses the word "bits" to associate its products with Games-Workshop. That means that Games-Workshop is claiming that the word "bits" is so closely associated with its own products in the minds of consumers that anyone who uses the word "bits" is causing confusion in the marketplace by associating their products with those of Games-Workshop.

It is important to seriously consider the real implications of the Chapterhouse Studios complaint and to recognize what Games-Workshop is attempting to do. This is not simply about Chapterhouse Studios. I literally had never gone to the Chapterhouse Studios website until I read the complaint. I barely knew that the company existed. The only salient issue is that Chapterhouse Studios is perfectly within its rights and Games-Workshop is using this lawsuit to attack the wargaming industry.

This has been Games-Workshop's litigation strategy for years. And it has been working in spite of how unjust, deplorable, and ridiculous it is. Manipulate people into thinking that the company owns more than it does by attacking those that cannot defend themselves. That is clearly what Games-Workshop is doing in this case.

But please recognize that even in the context of Games-Workshop's previous litigation the Chapterhouse complaint is especially egregious. It represents what I argue is an initial effort on the part of Games-Workshop to go after as much of the wargaming industry as it can get its hands on. Just look at the facts.

Games-Workshop's 2009-2010 financial report repeatedly referenced the company's defensible intellectual property and the intention to use litigation as a barrier to competitors' entry into the marketplace. Games-Workshop is publicly declaring the intention to use intellectual property litigation to squash small and up and coming miniatures businesses.

Games-Workshop has now established a pattern of using Foley and Lardner as its law firm of choice in US litigation. Foley and Lardner is a top-rated law firm that specializes in intellectual property. It is big, expensive, and scary. Choosing Foley and Lardner is a deliberate message that Games-Workshop is serious about intellectual property litigation and it intends to outspend and outclass you with the best attorneys around. And Games-Workshop is developing a relationship with Foley and Lardner, which suggests that the company has further litigation in mind.

Games-Workshop has stated that it intends to focus its expansion in the North American market. Tom Kirby is living in the US and working towards that goal. The same year that this intention was made clear, the Chapterhouse lawsuit was filed. It was filed on December 21st, which is a strategic move. This means that the complaint was drafted much earlier than December and Foley and Lardner was engaged for this purpose not long after the financial report was released, and possibly earlier.

Games-Workshop's Chapterhouse complaint goes extremely far, as I have described above, to claim the broadest possible span of intellectual property. It represents the first part of a coordinated attack on the wargaming industry. In order to ruin Chapterhouse Studios Games-Workshop does not even need to claim a fraction of as much intellectual property as is does. The complaint is worded in this manner in oder to establish a pattern of claimed intellectual property rights that, if they are never limited in court, will give Games-Workshop a better and better standing to bring suits against larger, more established competitors.

I implore those in this community to recognize the implications of what Games-Workshop is doing. If you do not believe that it is right, the way to stop it is to help give Chapterhouse Studios its day in court. Even if Games-Workshop doesn't have a long-term legal strategy in mind, Chapterhouse Studios deserves to defend itself. Anyone should be able to have the chance to defend themselves.

Games-Workshop is attacking Chapterhouse Studios because it thinks that Chapterhouse Studios will not be able to afford a legal defense. Even if you disagree with everything else that I've argued, at least recognize that this is not fair. Everyone should be entitled to a defense. It is a sad fact that mounting a legal defense is an incredibly expensive proposition. Games-Workshop is abusing that fact to its advantage in order to make accusations that will not be contested.

If Games-Workshop is in the right, it will win the case and its intellectual property will be much stronger because of it. But if Games-Workshop is wrong, if what it is doing is not fair, then Chapterhouse Studios only has a chance if we come together to support the company. Give the system a chance to wok.