"Missing" Legions - Heresy Spoilers

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I don't think that the Lost Legions fell to chaos. I think they deifed the Emperors Truth and worshiped him as a god. That is why the Emperor came down so hard on the WBs. I think their Primarchs took this line of thought further and felt they, as the Sons of a God, Were Gods also. I think one is Sigmar form Fantasy, and could see why he might feel he is a God. If you grew up on a world that had was bursting at the seams with Gods, and you beat them all, it might be hard to convince you you were not.

[Duke]

I would love it if GW said that sigmar ar one of the lost primarchs!

Duke

[Cherub]

Thats was a theory for a realy long time when I started playing and there was even rules for cross over. IE space marines in fantasy then for some reason all of it stopped and gw came out and said sigmar was not one of the missing primarchs and was indead seperate from the 40k universe. Though I do agree it would be mightly awesome.

[dietrich43]

Originally, the Warhammer world was set in the 40k universe, and I'm pretty sure that Sigmar was supposed to be a lost Primarch. Now, I don't know the Warhammer fluff that well, but I assume there was also a Chaos-tainted Primarch set in that world too.

SPOILERS AHEAD!

There's been a few recent easter eggs dropped.
1) The Ultramarines may have absorbed the remnants of the lost legions.
2) The Space Wolves may have eliminated one or both of them at the Emperor's command.
3) I forget the source, but at least two of the Primarchs were discussing the lost Legions and it was clear they had all sworn an oath to never mention it again. Now, as Big Red says, why haven't the traitor primarchs divulged what happened? Maybe they don't care, but I think he has a good point - they likely were involved in the destruction of the two Legions.

Also, and this hasn't been played up much since Flight of the Eisenstein, but remember all the Legions were originally filled with Terrans, and it was only after a Primarch was found that the Legion recruited from their homeworld. I wonder if there was a split in one or both missing Legions between the original Terrans and the Primarch and new recruits. The Terrans may have been been forgiven by the Emperor, and Guilliman may have offered to take them into his Legion and keep an eye on them for corruption. The alternative may have been to kill them, but considering they were veteran marines who went to war with the Emperor, he may have been reluctant to do that.

I doubt it was a case of mutation in the Legions. The Thousand Sons were mutating (after they found Magnus, which is interesting - did finding their Primarch release some dormant geneseed for them? did it do that for all the Legions?), and it doesn't appear it was limited to recruits from Prospero.

[Fantomex]

I don't think that the Lost Legions fell to chaos. I think they deifed the Emperors Truth and worshiped him as a god. That is why the Emperor came down so hard on the WBs. I think their Primarchs took this line of thought further and felt they, as the Sons of a God, Were Gods also. I think one is Sigmar form Fantasy, and could see why he might feel he is a God. If you grew up on a world that had was bursting at the seams with Gods, and you beat them all, it might be hard to convince you you were not.

I really doubt this one unfortunately, The First Heretic shows Lorgar quite cut up about the missing two, yet he still was choosing to worship the Emperor despite caution about it.
Of course, as the book started many many years before Isstvan we could imagine that maybe it all happened very quickly after Lorgars censure, as if they were maybe even more zealous about it than the Word Bearers..

However, I could imagine something to do with the genetic makeup of the two primarchs being the reason for their removal.
After all, the primarchs were created to be far from human.
Very far, to the point where regular man could barely understand the unimaginable power coursing through such icons of utter perfection. These are creations of such a technological zenith that the sheer process and comprehension behind it is, quite literally, unknowable, save the sole being who is as close to god-like as can physically be..

I personally interpret this as the Emperor using a bit of creativity and utilising certain traits from the animal kingdom as a basis for altering his own genes and other paragon examples of human ability, e.g. superior senses for Space Wolves coming from a canine genetic code, night vision coming from owls, etc.
Bearing in mind I mean this in the loosest terms, not literally that astartes have dog noses and owl eyes..

So, next, Astartes gene-seed was created using the genetic sequencing left over after the primarchs were created and subsequently whisked away.
As such, it was used to make a lesser set of quickly, mass-produced warriors which would be responsive, even maybe suggestible, to the commands, raw and undeniable charisma and amazing abilities of the primarch they were sired from, almost like children obeying their parents, or trained animals.

Bad analogy I know, but stick with me here..

Now, the primarchs have all shown some abilities far and beyond that of regular humans and astartes, all believed to be facets of the Emperors abilities. To dip into a list (and onto Lexicanum):

Super-strength - All, especially Angron & Sanguinius
Super-speed - All
Flight - Sanguinius, Magnus (psychically)
Invisibility - Corax (removes himself from the minds of others), Mortarion (can become undetectable, even to Magnus)
Immense psychic ability - Magnus, Lorgar, Sanguinius, possibly Night Haunter
Divination - Magnus, Sanguinius, Night Haunter
Hyper-intelligence - All
Instant tactical appraisal - All, expecially Alpharius
Siege Ability - Rogal Dorn, Perturabo, others
Hyper-immunity - All, possibly more for Mortarion?
Rapid healing - All
Size-shifting - Magnus, possibly Alpharius?
Hyper-violence - All, especially Angron & Leman Russ
Imperceptible camouflage - Corax, Mortarion, Alpharius
Machine empathy/ability - Ferrus Manus, Vulkan, Perturabo
etc
etc
(There used to be a great list on all abilities possessed by all primarchs on the old Black Library forums, but alas..)

Right, so we know that each primarch was gifted with a certain portion of the Emperors own ability, and we have also come to learn that each primarch was created to perform a certain function within what would have been a completely unified, human-dominated galaxy.

Now, all of these abilities could maybe be, or have been, shoehorned in an almost-the-same level ability possessed by others within the Imperium, e.g. assassins, Librarians, Inquisitors, Chapter Masters, etc.
Also, they have all had their place as abilities belonging to other races as well, again, demonstrated many times in canon.
As such, we can infer that there is pretty much no ability possessed by other races that is not possessed by another member of the Imperium, be it a primarch or the Emperor.

Obviously a certain angle here could be that of it being work done by the Old Ones, and yes, there is that distinct possibility, but it's not one I'm positing here..

We've seen at least two (that I can remember) very firm examples of astartes and primarch having a link beyond conventional genetics.
The first being Ferrus Manus appearing before the Iron Hands legion as Horus was defeated and the Emperor installed into the Golden Throne, and the second being Sanguinius' death creating the Black Rage.

Other possible genetic links post-primarch discovery include the high rate of psykers within the Thousand Sons, the obsession with bionics held by the Iron Hands, the hyper-acute senses of the Space Wolves, the fetish for perfection held by the Emperors Children, etc..

But, supposing the missing two primarchs had abilities seen previously, in canon, yet so far unseen as a power belonging to a primarch? Powers that could be enough to tip the scales against them with regards to the other primarchs?

I submit that each missing primarch may have held a power capable of gravely threatening the Emperor.

Obviously Horus, once infused with the power of the Chaos gods was a threat, but prior to his turning, he, and any other primarch, would have been defeatable by the Emperor.
It may have been a struggle, sure, but he would have been capable.
He is, after all, the Emperor..

But anyway, their powers.
These would likely be something not seen belonging to a primarch so far. Something possible, as seen from a fluff angle. Yet something against the grain, and powerful enough a threat to justify the possible execution of a primarch (bearing in mind, the Emperor only wanted Magnus brought back from Prospero for a possible scolding, even after ruining the webway portal in the throne room)..

I think one primarch was likely a very powerful pariah.

As in, enough of a psychic null to reduce the Emperors power significantly to the point of danger.
This would be a great threat, what could be more deadly than a straight rebellion, than one where you cannot utilise your greatest weapon against the traitors?

Also, it would mean the Emperor would not be able to psychically "suggest" ideas or obedience as he has been known to do with other primarchs such as Lorgar, and been unable to do to others, such as Angron.

With the rarity of pariahs, and such strength of said power, it could be that the legion belonging to this primarch never truly meshes, due to the innate revulsion felt. As such, where it was mentioned that after the disappearance of the legion there also happened to be an upswell of several thousand astartes within the Ultramarines ranks, this could be seen as symptomatic of such a power.

The other primarch, I thought, would probably be on the other end of the scale, yet of a different manner. I see this primarch as having an innate psychic or non-psychic link to his legion, and possibly others, culminating in a form of mental domination.
Imagine somewhere between the Tau Ethereals and the Enslaver Plague.

If such primarchs were to be, and needed to be "removed", surely this would be where some of Leman Russ' cryptic comments in Prospero Burns would tip towards, not to mention their unique relationship with the warp and psykers in general..
Perfect executioners indeed..

Heck, this is speculation and theory, given that there is no concrete proof either way, I'm just throwing out ideas that seem kinda cool.
Obviously this is very unlikely to be what *actually* happened, but if I intrigued you for five minutes, then hell yeah, I did my bit for the day..

Here, have the lexicanum view on it all: [URL]http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions[/URL]

I must admit, I'd love it if GW actually filled in the blanks for us and straight-up told us what happened.

Saying "you can make up your own stories that way" doesn't work, more mature players who like the background and stories scorn such practise, whilst young kids will just use the "my primarch idea is better than your primarch idea" argument..

Similarly, I'd like to see the storyline taken beyond M41.999, and I'm sure they could do so in a good way, but what you want and what you get can be two very different things..

[AirHorse]

As bigred says, there mustve been something that happened that disgusted/hurt them all in a way that the traitor legions didnt, something which even now disgusts those who turned to chaos. If I was to speculate(like I am right now!) I would say one of them was corrupted by or sided with an alien of some kind. I can easily see that as a reason for their eradication from history, and why the other primarchs are uncomfortable with talking about it.

The titles "The tragic" and "The fallen" imply two different reasons for their loss, perhaps connected in some way. Maybe if one did side with an alien and refused to join the imperium, forcing a conflict against imperial forces and in the following battles "The tragic" took to the field against his brother and was in the end slain by "The fallen".

Its a simple explanation but would explain why knowledge of one of the emperors own son siding with xenos would be prevented from becoming common knowledge in such a xenos intolerant society. If the traitor legions hadnt been around for so long and been integral to the growth of the empire, and hadnt torn such a huge rift accross the imperium to the extent that it was impossible for knowledge of them to be eradicated then they would most likely have suffered the exact same fate in eradication from history. Even in the 41st millenium hefty secrets are constantly deleted from records, thats how the imperium operates.

[harrybuttwhisker]

its fairly apparent that the space wolves did for one primarch and at least some of that legion. however if your looking for a reason for them not talking about it. what if the other primarch wasn't quite the paragon superhuman all his brothers were and couldn't live up to there achievements. That missing primarch could have killed themselves, this would seem to be something that would shame there other brothers into silence, feeling perhaps they let them down or there sibling rivalry someway lead to it. Surely any warrior would be shamed into silence if he felt he had some way bullied (via there rivalry) or let down there less gifted brother to the point of them committing suicide. It is a dark future after all.

[wittdooley]

its fairly apparent that the space wolves did for one primarch and at least some of that legion. however if your looking for a reason for them not talking about it. what if the other primarch wasn't quite the paragon superhuman all his brothers were and couldn't live up to there achievements. That missing primarch could have killed themselves, this would seem to be something that would shame there other brothers into silence, feeling perhaps they let them down or there sibling rivalry someway lead to it. Surely any warrior would be shamed into silence if he felt he had some way bullied (via there rivalry) or let down there less gifted brother to the point of them committing suicide. It is a dark future after all.

If you'd have read The First Heretic, you'd know that this primarch is Lorgar.

Remember the Kyle's Mom's a Beeyatch song from South Park? Insert Lorgar where Cartman says "Kyle's Mom" and you've got it.

I don't think any of them would be that concerned. I think they'd be happy that their bloodline was cleansed of the weakness. Hell, Curze basically says to Lorgar, while saving him from Corax no less, that if it were any other situation, he'd have killed him, too.

Again, it's fairly clear that Russ was dispatched to kill one of them. I think it's HIGHLY likely that it was due to befriending, or siding with, Xenos, and refusing to execute them in the name of the Imperium. To me, that would be even more of an unforgiveable sin than the fact that Lorgar is a sissy boy. I'd say this primarch could easily classify as "the Fallen."

As for "the Tragic," I'm really at a loss.

[Fellend]

Tragic could simply be that he died before being discovered... which would also explain why his legion was absorbed into other legions.
I'd think that would be pretty tragic from a warriors point of view, never reaching your full potential before some twist of fate cuts you down, even a primarch would be struggling against natural phenomena

[wittdooley]

Tragic could simply be that he died before being discovered... which would also explain why his legion was absorbed into other legions.
I'd think that would be pretty tragic from a warriors point of view, never reaching your full potential before some twist of fate cuts you down, even a primarch would be struggling against natural phenomena

Oooh, I like that. I think that's a really good potential. I struggle with it, because usually something being tragic indicates a fall from grace. Which, of course, is indicative of our other missing primarch's moniker. I think there is some interesting merit to the notion that Sigmar could be a primarch. We all know that the Emperor isn't above lying to his sons. We all know that Sigmar essentially did what the Emperor is seeking to do, though on a smaller scale (being planetary and not inter-planetary). Hell, Sigmar even "dissapeared" like so many of the Primarchs that are not known to be dead.

Of course, GW is adamant about the fact that Sigmar is not a primarch, so alas...