2500 Codex Marines

[angelspast]

++Hitting ard boyz w this list++

74 Marines, 3 Walkers, 8 Vehicles.


Librarian - Bolt Pistol, Null Zone, Avenger or Gate 100
Master of the Forge - Servoharness, Boltgun 100

6 Terminators - 6xStormshield/ThunderHammer 240
8 Sternguard - Rhino, 2xMissile Launcher 245
8 Sternguard - Rhino, 2xMissile Launcher 245

10 Tactical - Rhino, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Power Weapon 225
10 Tactical - Rhino, Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Power Weapon 225
10 Tactical - Rhino, Plasmagun, Plasmacannon 220
10 Tactical - Rhino, Plasmagun, Plasmacannon 220

10 Assault - 2xFlamer, Power Weapon 225
Landspeeder Tornado - Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70
Landspeeder Tornado - Multimelta, Heavy Flamer 70

Dreadnought - Multi-Melta, Powerfist, Stormbolter 105
Dreadnought - Multi-Melta, Powerfist, Stormbolter 105
Dreadnought - Multi-Melta, Powerfist, Stormbolter 105
Issues?

[Legoklods]

So your termies are going to walk it/deep strike? Not going to work. Apart from that I like it, its very different from all the other c:sm armies...

[angelspast]

Deepstrike against some armies, walk (ie hang back) against others, or if needs be Gate with the librarian

Thanks, trying for different. Been laying the smackdown on 'competitive' razorback spam lists lately

[blackarmchair]

Drop the rockets from the sternguard squads. The rest of the squad isn't targeting tanks so they're a waste.

Tactical squads are bad. I don't recommend taking 4 of them but if you must take 1x melta, 1x combi-melta and 1x lascannon and split them up to get cheap lascannon spam.

Don't take assault squads (they really can't fight) or Land Speeder Tornados (they die SUPER fast). If you must take Landspeeders at all take typhoons with heavy bolters and stay 3ft away. I recommend not taking them at all however, take attack bikes with multi-meltas.

Dreads are cool to take as heavies but change them to rifleman dreads (2x TwL autocannons). This allows them to hang back and break low AV transports (and they're good for creatures too) because a foot-sloging dread is just asking for it.

Sorry to be such a downer. C:SM just doesn't have many good choices left. If I may ask, why don't you make this list a blood angels list? You can keep whatever fluff you like, your army will just be better and - most likely - cheaper.

[Splug]

Tactical squads are bad.
...
Don't take assault squads (they really can't fight)
...
why don't you make this list a blood angels list?

If you're not a fan of assault squads or tactical squads, why recommend Angels over Wolves? Somewhere, there will have to be scoring units (and at 2500, 4 squads of scoring units is very reasonable), and unless you're advocating scout spam that will turn back into buying tactical squads and assault marines - just with faster, more expensive cars.

[Tynskel]

I like the assault squad, Tactically, the unit should support a Tactical squad.

Personally, I'd drop one tactical squad.
I would spend the points to
1) upgrade one sternguard to 10 men, so they can combat squad. Upgrade the combat squad's weapons to combi-whatevers. Take a razorback.
2) downgrade the second sternguard to 6 men, and exchange rhino for a Drop Pod.
3) upgrade 2 Dreads to Mortis Dreadnoughts with twin-Autocannons
4) upgrade the third dreadnought to an Ironclad with Assault Launchers, hv Flamer, in a Drop Pod.
5) invest in CC weapons for the Tactical Squad Sgts.

Basically, the tactical squad is a solid unit, however, the more you take, the more diminishing returns you have. By dropping 1 tactical squad, you enhance all of your other units in their destructive capability. The second Drop Pod is to give Ironclad flexibility for either 1st turn entrance or come in later.

Now you have a strong firebase: 2 combat squad sternguards with long range, backed up by 2 Mortis Dreads. Then you have a forward assault element with 3 tactical squads, terminators, and an Ironclad. Lastly you have a Reserve Firepower/assault with the Assault Marines and Land Speeders.

[Tynskel]

heh, I actually like the idea of making this a Blood Angels List. Take Tycho as the commander.

[blackarmchair]

If you're not a fan of assault squads or tactical squads, why recommend Angels over Wolves? Somewhere, there will have to be scoring units (and at 2500, 4 squads of scoring units is very reasonable), and unless you're advocating scout spam that will turn back into buying tactical squads and assault marines - just with faster, more expensive cars.

Well Tactical squads are always bad. If you have to play C:SM then well...you're stuck with at least a few of them.

C:SM Assault squads are quite different from Blood Angels Assault Squads (furious charge, feel no pain, maybe fearless if you're lucky). And spamming them as troops is a lot different than one eight man squad.

Personally, I do recommend wolves (I play wolves). But not everyone likes wolves, in fact a lot of people hate them. The reason I recommended the list be re-done as a BA army is that Blood Angles ARE C:SM with a few new units and some general improvements, Wolves are quite different.

In the BA book he could keep his sternguard, keep his Heavy Support Dreads, and keep his cheap TH/SS Terminators. Hell he could even keep his tactical squads (though I don't recommend this).

But yes wolves are the kings of MEQ right now.

[angelspast]

Drop the rockets from the sternguard squads. The rest of the squad isn't targeting tanks so they're a waste.

Tactical squads are bad. I don't recommend taking 4 of them but if you must take 1x melta, 1x combi-melta and 1x lascannon and split them up to get cheap lascannon spam.

Don't take assault squads (they really can't fight) or Land Speeder Tornados (they die SUPER fast). If you must take Landspeeders at all take typhoons with heavy bolters and stay 3ft away. I recommend not taking them at all however, take attack bikes with multi-meltas.

Dreads are cool to take as heavies but change them to rifleman dreads (2x TwL autocannons). This allows them to hang back and break low AV transports (and they're good for creatures too) because a foot-sloging dread is just asking for it.

Missile Launchers are just as good vs infantry as tanks, gives flexibility at a very cheap cost for the sternguard? I initially ran more combi-melta, but I've changed it as I found them used more as flexible fire support.

Hurm not sure what to say about tactical squads. If you can't find a use for them, you're playing the wrong army Ttough, mobile, potential to kill just about anything, not really optimized for any particular role. You pop them out to exploit whatever the enemy doesn't do well, add bodies, and score. I would like to have two squads running lascannons, but I don't want to give up my plasma...

I've debated back and forth over bikes vs speeders, they're both equally fragile and both carry melta. Landspeeders end up being more mobile, and as vehicles can do some nifty/annoying blocking tricks. The assault marines are glorified tactical marines, true. However with combat tactics they can disengage from poor combats, and they're too dangerous to ignore when going after your fire support.

Yeah the dreads are a little slower, but they can run, have smoke, and can take cover using the rhinos. They'll get there, or die and draw a good deal of fire doing it. I like mortis dreads, but don't think I really need more low armor popping, as every unit already has 1 or 2 methods?

Sorry to be such a downer. C:SM just doesn't have many good choices left. If I may ask, why don't you make this list a blood angels list? You can keep whatever fluff you like, your army will just be better and - most likely - cheaper

Couple problems with running a blood angels army, it's very different from a codex marine list... Although running dreads as heavies without a master of the forge is appealing on it's own. However the opportunity cost is too high.

Blood Angels librarians lack Null Zone and Gate, which every other army envies. Blood angels librarians don't really support the army as a whole as well.

Blood Angels lack combat tactics, again very useful and highly underrated ability. I don't want fearless/stubborn or anything of the likes, getting stuck in fights you can't win just stinks. I'd rather fallback, auto regroup, and leave the assault unit open to being shot up. Not to mention it makes it difficult to shoot and then assault my units, as I'll fall back out of range if casualties are taken. Sort of a double resiliency.

Blood Angels vehicles cost 30-40% more as they're fast, which isn't capitalized on unless you're running an assault based army. They also don't have searchlights, which irks me. My list isn't purely assault based. It's a mix, it does OK shooting, it does OK assaulting, and it's fairly mobile. No matter what type of army I'm facing (and this list is being worked for ard boyz) I'll have options and a chance to win. With an assault based blood angels army you have basically one option, assault and table your opponent. Works great until you face something tougher in close combat than you are, and once the sanguinary priests drop the army just folds. I want a swiss army knife, not a can opener

On a side note, grey hunters are the best troop option on the game! I'd use the space wolf codex if it wasn't so stressed for slots in the elite department, and had combat tactics...

I like the assault squad, Tactically, the unit should support a Tactical squad.

Personally, I'd drop one tactical squad.
I would spend the points to
1) upgrade one sternguard to 10 men, so they can combat squad. Upgrade the combat squad's weapons to combi-whatevers. Take a razorback.
2) downgrade the second sternguard to 6 men, and exchange rhino for a Drop Pod.
3) upgrade 2 Dreads to Mortis Dreadnoughts with twin-Autocannons
4) upgrade the third dreadnought to an Ironclad with Assault Launchers, hv Flamer, in a Drop Pod.
5) invest in CC weapons for the Tactical Squad Sgts.

Basically, the tactical squad is a solid unit, however, the more you take, the more diminishing returns you have. By dropping 1 tactical squad, you enhance all of your other units in their destructive capability. The second Drop Pod is to give Ironclad flexibility for either 1st turn entrance or come in later.

Now you have a strong firebase: 2 combat squad sternguards with long range, backed up by 2 Mortis Dreads. Then you have a forward assault element with 3 tactical squads, terminators, and an Ironclad. Lastly you have a Reserve Firepower/assault with the Assault Marines and Land Speeders.

Some of this I've already covered, so won't repeat. Ironclads are hampered by high price upgraded, they operate within meltagun range negating their superior armor , and don't really do more in combat than a normal dread. Two drop pods is a very awkward number deployment wise... I don't really expect the tactical squads to hold up long in close combat, the powerfists are only there to discourage/snipe an IC before falling back to regroup out of combat. Thinking my firebase and rhino castle if needed is stronger as is...

[angelspast]

Bump... Messed w the list after a weekends gaming. Few little changes...

Thinking about swapping the assault squad for 6 scout bikers w 3 grenade launchers... any thoughts?