Assault Rules

[wkz]

Or wkz vs Tynskel's *****fighting on "A unit have to assault an enemy unit fully before split-charging. Yes/No?".

Exhibit A: [url]http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/01/spacecurves-tactics-class-death-by.html#comment-128457351[/url]
(you'll have to click "more comments" for this one)

The more recent Exhibit B: [url]http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/02/40k-tactics-beating-tyranid-deathstars.html#comment-151176599[/url]

I'm posting here because (a) on the possibility I might be wrong *gasp* I'd want to know about it. (But I'm pretty sure I'm not)

And (b) down to this point in time the argument has degraded into name calling and cursing and juvenile language (and pretty soon I think Hitler will be involved), and absolutely nothing will get resolved.

Discuss

[Sam]

From what I read, you are correct. The rules for assaulting (after declaring the charge, of course) are written on a per model basis, not a per unit basis.

[BuFFo]

What is the question?

[wkz]

Opps, forgot to post a summary.

This whole mess started with one of Spacecurves Tactical lessons (first link). Basically, Tynskel said

I see one problem with the pictures---
This wouldn't have worked if the rabbit didn't move closer to the Dark Eldar in the second picture.

Assault rules are quite strict.

And elaborated:

no, that's incorrect. You must get into base to base with the unit you declared against. If you declared the rabbit, every single terminator would have been able to reach the rabbit. None would have reached the warriors.

Multi-charging a unit is very restricted. The assault phase rules do not give choices to the user. Read the assault rules carefully--- you can only assault a second unit if 1) you cannot reach the unit declared, 2) move toward the unit declared, 3) maintain coherency. To attempt to move to the warriors would have your models move away from the rabbit. The warriors need to be close to the rabbit such that moving toward the warriors is bringing you closer to the rabbit.

and

I have been through them a gagillion times--- you cannot assault another unit unless you fulfill every single other requirement. The big one being that you are moving as close as you can to the main target--- often charging a second unit requires you to move away from your target--- that is not allowed.

Here the question: Is what Tynskel said above correct?
(Everything below is just my opinion on this question)


That's about the time I first spotted his argument. My first response:

By your logic, NOBODY will be able to multi-assault, as any other unit out there is FURTHER than the original declared unit (even if the 2nd unit involved is in the way). By your interpretation of the rules, I must fulfill "ALL of the stipulations for assaulting one unit BEFORE you can attempt to assault a second unit". So,

1) First model, must touch declared closest model. Done.
2) All other models in range to do so, must BTB with declared unengaged model of assaulted target. They cannot choose another target. Must maintain coherency.
3) All other models, must BTB with declared target. Must maintain coherency.
4) Cannot reach? Support
5) Cannot support? Hang around.

But here's the point: NOTHING in the above 5 steps state anything about assaulting a 2nd unit. They're steps to fulfill assaulting only the original target unit. And by the time "ALL of the stipulations for assaulting one unit" is done, all the models would have moved, and cannot "attempt to assault a second unit"...


Note that the above is WRONG, steps 2-4 at least (by most, if not all the people I know, and by most of the people I've read on the intawebs).

The key here is you can declare a 2nd target. That target becomes eligible for charging "as long as all for assaulting one unit stipulations are met"... note the difference in my statement and yours: Because I declared a split charge, BOTH units ARE Eligible Targets, and BOTH units count towards the rule of assaulting:

1) First model, must touch declared closest model of first target. Done.
2) All other models in range to do so, must BTB with declared unengaged targets, never mind if it is the first target or any other target. Must maintain coherency.
3) All other models, must BTB with declared unengaged targets, never mind if it is the first target or any other target. Must maintain coherency.
4) Cannot reach? Support
5) Cannot support? Hang around.

And that is where you and I (with paintraina on my side) differ...

He disagreed with that

that's incorrect.

An enemy can be 1" away from the enemy model, therefore you can charge both at the same time, you are not moving further away. Another example, if your path of model takes you around another one of your own/enemy models to reach an a model within the enemy unit, and a second unit is in the way, you can engage them that way too.

The Assault Rules are Quite Strict. You can only multiple assault if you have fulfilled the criteria for assaulting one unit.


You cannot declare a Split charge--- you can only charge one unit. Where do you come up with a split charge? There is NOTHING in the rulebook about that.


In the example above, using the first picture, the rabbit was farther away, if you had the TH terminators charge the Gargantuan Rabbit, all of the terminators can reach the rabbit, and therefore Must do so. If you declared against the Warrior squad, only some of the terminators can reach the warriors, but the others would continue around their allies, always trying to get closer to the enemy models in the same unit, however, you will be moving away from the warrior unit if you tried to engage the Gargantuan rabbit. Therefore, you cannot engage the Gargantuan rabbit.

However, in the Second picture, the Rabbit is closer--- and the picture obviously shows what happens, the only way to get your models closer to the warriors is to go through the rabbit, and therefore you may engage the rabbit too. However, the one model that is hanging out in tim-buck-too is wrong, it should be clumped up with its friends, attempting to engage the warriors, but engaging the Gargantuan Rabbit, instead.

I replied:

@Tynskel, I have my rulebook with me right now, and you're an idiot.

Pg 34: Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units:
As usual, the closest attacking model must... contact the closest enemy unit against which the assault is declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting units....

My steps are correct, unless you can point out what is wrong with the following 2 statements:

Step 2) All other models in range to do so, must BTB with declared unengaged targets, never mind if it is the first target or any other target. Must maintain coherency.

Step 3) All other models, must BTB with declared unengaged targets, never mind if it is the first target or any other target. Must maintain coherency.

And here's where you're wrong:
a)
The Assault Rules are Quite Strict indeed. You can only multiple assault if you have fulfilled the criteria for assaulting one unit enemy models that are close enough to maintain unit coherency.

b)
Using the first picture:
If you charge the bunny instead of the DE squad, closest to closest happens. However, by Step 2, you can place the next model in BTB with the DE already (2" coherency is the size of a terminator base, and it is EASILY achieved.

And if you charge the Squad instead of the bunny, closest to closest is somewhere in the middle of both squads. Simply follow the rules of "must engage un-engaged enemy models" leftwards until you get a terminator model at the left of the squad... and hey, a Terminator can now make the "jump" to hit the bunny.

c)
The rabbit is closer because you can't control a living thing that moves on its own. Ever heard of how difficult it is to make movies involving Children and Animals?

Seriously, You need to read up on assault rules, because you're getting it really, tragically wrong... and what's worse "Quite Strict" suggests you've been doing this for a while

He gave a final rejoinder which I missed:

I like how you bolded charge other units. You forgot the SECOND HALF of the sentence which states to follow ALLLLLLLL of the rules for moving assault models.

You have to move toward the unit you declared the charge against. You must do Everything you can to assault the unit you declared charge against.

3 of the rules state to move toward the enemy declared charge against. the 4th and 5th rules state you must maintain coherency. As long as you are moving toward the enemy and maintaining coherency, and cannot possibly get closer to the enemy unit, THEN you can charge a second unit.

... and I forgot about this thread of argument until recently (2nd link). And it has gone pretty much downhill right after that...


(I'm not going to post the contents of the 2nd link, because in the time between my first ever post here and this post, I noticed the Sticky thread at the top of the forum... Opps, sorry about breaking that rule. Feel free to close this thread if posting a link to this juvenile argument is too much)

[Paintraina]

Not much of a "Summary" wkz.

But you have it right.

Pg 34: under "Assaulting Multiple Units" says that you may assault other units provided you follow the rules for "Moving Assaulting Models".

When we look Under "Moving Assaulting Models" It states that the 1st model moved must be the one closest to the target enemy unit, and it must base that unit. This is the only time the rules force one of your models to base a certain "unit" rather than the much more permissive target of "Enemy Models" which is used for the rest of the points for assaulting enemy models.

Basically Unlike Tynskel states, the rules DO NOT say you must do everything in your power to assault the enemy unit you declared against. The actual wording says you must do everything in your power to assault enemy MODELS.

Also he continually goes back to the statement right at the start of the page under the heading "Move Assaulting Unit". This is important. It is the crux of the argument against multiassault. The statement is "assaulting units must now move into close combat with the unit they have declared an assault against" . The reason this argument does not work is that the rules for assaulting multiple enemy units specifically say to refer to the rules for "Moving Assaulting Models" when determining when a multi-assault is legit, and not the "Move Assaulting Unit" rules.

His other strong argument is that when you consider the multi-assault rules in tandem with "Moving Assaulting Models" rules, point 2 ("If Possible, the model must move into base contact with an enemy model that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model") seems to imply that you would be forced to assault any and all enemies within range. The reason this argument doesn't hold up is because the first paragraph of "Moving Assaulting Models" states that "Assaulting models may still not move...into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting". This means you aren't forced to base enemy models unless you actually intent to assault them.

This really should have been an open and shut case. It's really not even ambiguous.

[DarkLink]

Just keep in mind that when you are moving your assaulting models, you have to keep the models that have been moved in coherency with each other, which can severely hinder multi-charges.

So you move model A, then model B must move to be within 2" of model A. Model C must then move within 2" of models A or B, and so on and so forth. And since you must engage an enemy model if you can, that means it isn't always possible to multi-charge enemy units that are too far away from each other.

[Paintraina]

Darklink is correct. However, there are some ways to span some pretty wide multi assaults if you move your models in a certain order.

[Tynskel]

you are leaving out all of the previous statements in the rules.

p. 33
"pick a unit. Declare which enemy unit it is going to assault. Move assaulting unit."

There is only one target.

Top of page 34.
"Assautling units must now move into close combat with the unit they have declared an assault against. A player must move all of the assaulting models in each assaulting unit before moving on to the next unit. the assaulting player decides the order in which his units will move.

Moving Assaulting Models

All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models. This means that assaulting models may still not move through friendly or enemy models, may not pass through gaps narrower than their base, and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting."

This statement CLEARLY states you may not engage a second unit. All future language is with respect to this statement.

The statement is reiterated:

"Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible- no holding back! Start each assault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit. The model selected must be the one closest to the enemy (going around impassable terrain, friendly models and enemy models in units not being assaulted) Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route. Roll for difficult or dangerous terrain if necessary, and if the model is killed by a dangerous terrain test, start the assault again with the next closest model. If the closest model is found not to be within move distance to the enemy, that assault does not happen and no model is moved.
If the enemy is within range, then the assault move continues. After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire. There are some constraints on their movement though:"

Again, you may only engage models from the target unit. Note, the last paragraph. You may move in any sequence you desire. In effect, you no longer have to move your closest model towards the enemy next. However, this no where states to stop following the assaulting model rules! Whatever model you pick must move toward the closest enemy model (within the same unit, because you may not engage a second unit), this model must still move around impassable terrain, and this model may not engage a second unit.
Now the last paragraph continues: "There are some constraints on their movement though." This means there are more restrictions, not less. No where does this statement remove any previous directions on how to assault. For example: 'any enemy model within reach' is still restricted by not engaging a second enemy unit from the previous paragraphs.

Now we go to assaulting multiple enemy units.
"Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models."

The key phrase in this sentence is 'as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models.' The emphasis, in the English Language, is not the first, or the middle, but is on the last phrase of a sentence. What this key phrase states is that you must follow all of the assault rules first.
The restrictions of assaulting one unit apply to all of the rules.
When one has completed all of those rules, then the player '...can assault models belonging to other enemy units'.



This is why it is difficult to assault second or more units.

[Lemt]

A few things, as both sides are leaving out important bits of the rules I'll fill in.

1) At the end of page 33 it says to look at the exception over the page for multiple targets. This contradicts what you said, Tynskel, as the rules on page 33 clearly state you CAN target multiple enemy units. How to do so will be explained later.
However, as we'll soon see, there are restrictions.

2) The rules then describe how to follow through with assaults AGAINST A SINGLE TARGET. Key points marked by the rules are:
A- You must mantain coherency.
B- You must try to B2B with enemy models not yet in B2B with your models.
C- You must then try to reach B2B with enemy models already in B2B with one of your minis.
D- You must then move within 2" of your minis already in B2B, if you can no longer reach B2B with enemy models in that unit.
E- If that is impossible, mantain coherency.
B C and D tell you how you have to move your models.A tells you to mantain coherency. E reminds you to mantain coherency with those models that can't fulfill B C and D.

3) In "Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units" what it basically says is that, after you move assaulting models, you may find you can assault other units. In other words, the miniatures, if any, left after D, AKA the ones you would move in E just to mantain coherency, can follow the same steps against another unit.
However, you MUST keep coherency with your unit. If the enemy unit is too far away to mantain coherency, too bad. No double assaults.

In other words, the following diagram illustrates a RAW-valid (and imho RAI-valid) assault against two different units.
DARK RED - Enemy unit 1 (primary target)
LIGHT RED - Enemy unit 2 (secondary target)
LIGHT GREEN - Original allied miniatures location.
DARK GREEN - Final allied miniatures location (fulfilled A, B C and D against Enemy Unit 1)
LIGHT BROWN - Final allied miniatures location (couldn't fulfill neither B C nor D against Enemy Unit 1)
BLUE ARROWS - Movement of each allied miniature.



I'll explain how this can be achieved.

1) You first fulfill condition B, by moving your miniatures into B2B with enemy minis, but trying to not leave enough space between your minis for more minis.
2) If you've done step 1 correctly, none (or few) miniatures will be able to fulfill step C. So you start with step D, staying as FAR AWAY from your minis as possible while still being within 2" of the minis that you already moved.
3) If you've done steps 1 and 2 correctly, you've maximised the chances you'll have the highest number of miniatures possible that can no longer fulfill B, C and D. Since they only have to fulfill A/E (AKA stay in coherency with the unit) you can either move them close to your other minis to mantain coherency, or attempt an assault against other enemy units.

EDIT: Two miniatures from Enemy Unit 2 (light red) would then have to get in closer to your allied minis, as explained under "Defenders React" on page 34, but that's not needed for this demonstration.

EDIT 2: I now think [URL="http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=122769&postcount=14"]THIS POST[/URL] on page 2 is how is really works, read it to see why.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Lemt you are a genius,

I hope this settles this argument now.