Assault Rules

[Tynskel]

nope, it doesn't, because the figure is incorrect.

All the rules on page 33 say is that there is an exception. However, the exception in no way states to ignore the rules for moving assaulting models--- in fact it reiterates that you must follow the moving assaulting models rules.

"There are some constraints on their movement though:" followed by your 'key points'. However, these are NOT key points. They are constraints. Constraints further constrict the rules, not loosen the rules. You are still bound by the previous assault rules--- the previous assault rules state to not engage a second unit.

The key words for multi-assault are to follow the assault rules. The assault rules are explicit about engaging multiple units. You may not engage multiple units until you have fulfilled all of the assault rules.

This means the models in the back must attempt to move toward the already engaged models. If the enemy models are not engaged (for example, you decide to move the back models first) you must still move toward the primary target.

[Morgan Darkstar]

ARRRGGGH

Had to go grab my rulebook bearing in mind its after 0200 here plus this still will not convince you so i am not sure of the point!

PG34 'srb' it says pick a unit you are correct it does unfortunately your entire argument is based on this. even though in the multiple assault rules it says "as usual the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest enemy model in the unit you have declared the assault against "

it goes on to say that "Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units as long as they continue to follow the rules for MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS

ie they must maintain coherence, they myst try to get into base to base etcetera.

ah who cares you not going to agree are you?

you have your opinion and thats cool.

[Tynskel]

uh, you are forgetting:

Moving Assaulting Models begins at the top of the page. That's the problem, everyone reads the bottom of the page, but the rules begin at the top.
the rules always refer to not engaging a second enemy unit. Read my previous post, read the rules, it is all there.

No where does the rules state to ignore the rule for engaging one unit.



Here's the thing. I am not going to agree with you unless you can show me the language that specifically states to not follow the assault rules.

All the multi-assault rules had to do is leave out the 'follow the assault rules' portion. But they didn't. Plus, they put that phrase at the end of the sentence, which further puts emphasis on that phrase.

[Lemt]

nope, it doesn't, because the figure is incorrect.

All the rules on page 33 say is that there is an exception. However, the exception in no way states to ignore the rules for moving assaulting models--- in fact it reiterates that you must follow the moving assaulting models rules.

"There are some constraints on their movement though:" followed by your 'key points'. However, these are NOT key points. They are constraints. Constraints further constrict the rules, not loosen the rules. You are still bound by the previous assault rules--- the previous assault rules state to not engage a second unit.

The key words for multi-assault are to follow the assault rules. The assault rules are explicit about engaging multiple units. You may not engage multiple units until you have fulfilled all of the assault rules.

This means the models in the back must attempt to move toward the already engaged models. If the enemy models are not engaged (for example, you decide to move the back models first) you must still move toward the primary target.

By your interpretation, then the section in page 34 "Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units" is useless, as you never CAN assault multiple enemy units. What I say, however, is that you can only assault multiple enemy units if you follow the rules for assaulting a single enemy unit, and only with models that can't assault the first target, and so just have to follow the rule of "stay in coherency with the rest of your unit".

You are basing your argument, I believe, on the end of the first paragraph under "Moving Assaulting Units". There, as you said, it clearly says you cannot move into B2B with an enemy unitthat you aren't assaulting.
No objections on that. Where we disagree is on how that works. Back to my diagram, while you are assaulting Enemy Unit 1 (AKA are able to fulfill conditions B, C or D with Enemy Unit 1) you CAN'T move a mini into contact with Enemy Unit 2. But after that, you can assault the second unit.



NOTE: There is a third, much more liberal interpretation, that may possibly be just as valid. Section "Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units" on page 34 says (I'll use quotation marks on literal quotes):
When you start moving your miniatures, you may find that other enemy units are within assault range. So "the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the enemy unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units," but follow rules A, B, C, D and E.

So here's a second diagram, to show how this would work:
DARK RED - Enemy unit 1 (primary target, you declared your assault against this)
LIGHT RED - Enemy unit 2 (secondary target)
LIGHT GREEN - Original allied miniatures location.
DARK GREEN - First miniature moved to B2B with Enemy Unit 1
LIGHT BROWN - Final allied miniatures location assaulting Enemy Unit 1 (fulfilling B, C or D against Enemy Unit 1)
LIGHT GREY - Final allied miniatures location assaulting Enemy Unit 2 (fulfilling B, C or D against Enemy Unit 2)
BLUE ARROWS - Movement of each allied miniature.


This follows the rules for Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units. First you move the allied model closest to the enemy unit you declared your assault against into B2B with the closest enemy mini of that unit. Then, as you see you can assaultanother enemy unit too and wish to do so, you move each other miniature in your unit. You MUST fulfill B, C or D against one of the assaulted enemy units while doing this, and you MUST keep unit coherency. But you can freely choose the miniatures assaulting each enemy unit. For example, the top Light Grey miniature could just as easily be declared as attacking Enemy Unit 1. The weird placement is just to make sure you mantain coherency.

In fact, reading it carefully I'm pretty sure this is the correct working of the rules. But tell me of anything you disagree with, I want to get this right too.

[Tynskel]

no, the light grey models were not moving toward the unengaged enemy models. All of your models must move toward unengaged enemy model from the target unit. Since there are still unengaged models, you must try to get everyone there, even if they cannot reach.

Even if the enemy models were engaged, you are still required to move toward the target unit, in attempt 'double up' on the engaged models. Even then, you still must move toward the target unit, trying to get as close as possible.

Basically, you need to reach the 'impossible' step, and at that point, you may come into contact with an second (or more) unit(s).

This is why swarms of units are able to pull off multi-charges (ex. hormogaunt squad of 20+ models). They completely saturate the target unit, and while still attempting to reach the target unit, they 'spill over' into a second (or more) enemy units.

[Morgan Darkstar]

No i'm not going to point out why your wrong because i can't..... i just believe you are wrong.

i now remember why i hate playing this game with strangers.
'I once was privy to a discussion between two DnD players one rules lawyer was explaining his great insight into the game how he had with the rules created a invunerable character buy having a character that could ignore effects on him. he argued that as everything is essentially an effect i.e. magik, damage, starvation, drowning etc. he with this collection of abilities was effectively immortal. the gm rather than argue ended the game and we went to the pub he wasn't invited nor was he invited to the dnd session again'

edit "sorry if this sounds harsh it's not intended as an insult more trying to explain how i feel when discussing rules like this"

i agree with the liberal interpretation of the multi assault rules you don't so we will agree to disagree.

Night

[Tynskel]

Here's an example:
Blue = assaulting unit; Green = Target Unit; Red = a second opponent; 1 = closest assaulting model; L = last moving model

For simplicity, the distances are not to scale.

The models have doubled up on the entirely on every available opposing model.
The last blue model cannot:
1) reach an unengaged enemy model,
2) reach an engaged enemy model,
3) cannot reach a friendly model within 2" that is in base to base with an enemy model
4) is at the 'impossible' stage, thereby maintains coherency, and engages a second unit.



This is where you get tricky. By you choosing the order of moving your respective models, you can end up multi-assaulting. However, at all times you must follow the assault rules.


EDIT:
Also note, if I add additional models to the blue unit, I can have them further engage more red models. Essentially, only units that vastly out number their opponent can multi-charge. The circumstances, otherwise, have to beneficial to multi-charging (like your opponent mixed units).

[Lemt]

no, the light grey models were not moving toward the unengaged enemy models. All of your models must move toward unengaged enemy model from the target unit. Since there are still unengaged models, you must try to get everyone there, even if they cannot reach.

Even if the enemy models were engaged, you are still required to move toward the target unit, in attempt 'double up' on the engaged models. Even then, you still must move toward the target unit, trying to get as close as possible.

Basically, you need to reach the 'impossible' step, and at that point, you may come into contact with an second (or more) unit(s).

This is why swarms of units are able to pull off multi-charges (ex. hormogaunt squad of 20+ models). They completely saturate the target unit, and while still attempting to reach the target unit, they 'spill over' into a second (or more) enemy units.

"the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the enemy unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units"

Quoted again from the "assaulting multiple enemy units" section. Doesn't this part mean that you don't have to move all your minis towards the unit you directed your assault in the first place? After the first mini is moved, all the ret should be able to assault who they please, as long as they keep unit coherency.

Either way, I REALLY have to go to sleep (5:45 hours:minutes is all I have left), so I'll look into this again once I'm fresh tomorrow. I'm probably just not thinking clearly anymore.

EDIT: I'll also check your diagram tomorrow. I can't even understand my own diagrams right now.

[Tynskel]

No i'm not going to point out why your wrong because i can't..... i just believe you are wrong.

i now remember why i hate playing this game with strangers.
'I once was privy to a discussion between two DnD players one rules lawyer was explaining his great insight into the game how he had with the rules created a invunerable character buy having a character that could ignore effects on him. he argued that as everything is essentially an effect i.e. magik, damage, starvation, drowning etc. he with this collection of abilities was effectively immortal. the gm rather than argue ended the game and we went to the pub he wasn't invited nor was he invited to the dnd session again'

edit "sorry if this sounds harsh it's not intended as an insult more trying to explain how i feel when discussing rules like this"

i agree with the liberal interpretation of the multi assault rules you don't so we will agree to disagree.

Night

You forgot the most important rule for DnD.

The DM is always right.

As for playing with 'strangers' and 40k there are 'house rules'. And there are tournament rules. Most tournament rules are to just play the rules in the rulebook. If they do not announce formal rule changes before the game, you must follow the rules how they are written.

[Morgan Darkstar]

This is a valid interpretation of the rule i still believe it's not meant to be as restrictive as this

also what stopped the last model movin diagonally up and to the left avoiding the other unit and being closer to the original enemy?