Where are all the good guys?

[Kawauso]

Every faction in 40k commits terrible atrocities with alarming frequency. There really is no straight-up 'good' or 'evil'. Well, there are factions that are definitely evil and there are decidedly 'less evil' ones, but you get my point.

Imperium:
They're super xenophobic, racist, fanatical and they commit genocide or kill entire planets in order to achieve their goals. Not great role models. Yes, they will work diplomatically with races like the Eldar or Tau, but only when that would work in their favour. They'd much rather just have the galaxy to themselves.

Eldar:
They're arrogant and racist and will pretty much do the same thing as the Imperium in pursuit of their goals. The only difference is they have less resources at their disposal and will often set up Imperial forces or citizens as a 'fall guy'.

Dark Eldar:
These dudes are bad. Have you heard about them?

Tau:
While they aren't xenophobes, and genocide isn't their first choice in resolving conflicts, they're still really racist. Tau are 'first among equals' in their society and they're not above doing things like, say, sterilizing the breeding alien population on one of their worlds if a society is being particularly unruly. And they will destroy planets when they feel they 'have to'. Tau probably have the best PR department of the 'less evil' races, but that's only because they'll stab you in the back, not the face - and only after you say something mean about their Ethereals.

Orks:
Orks are actually pretty neutral, as far as I'm concerned. At least, they fight everyone equally. They still do loads more 'bad' things than 'good', though, I'm sure.

Tyranids:
Also pretty neutral...they're more like a force of nature than a faction. They eat everyone equally. But they will eat -everyone-, given the chance.

Necrons:
These dudes hate you if you're alive, and they want to feed you to their star-gods. They might not kill you outright if you're the Blood Angels and they just exhausted their resources helping you stymie a Tyranid invasion, but that's only because they'd prefer to kill you when they're good and ready. It's not a question of 'if' they will kill you, but 'when'.

Chaos:
See Dark Eldar.
Seriously, these guys have problems.

[Fellend]

Personally I don't see how you can consider the Tau good. As many has pointed out sure they might not exterminate you if they don't have too. They just enslave you instead.

Mass effect 2 Spoiler, in case you want to play the game







I'm reminded of the choice in mass effect 2 where you get to decide the fate of the "evil" race of robots. You can either destroy them all or reprogram them all to believe that you are their savior. With the first being the evil alternative and the second the good one.
It always struck me as a bit of wtf? How is brainwashing and destroying the minds of an entire race considered good. All you are doing is enslaving their free will.

[Skragger]

Its funny.. WHFB has a much bigger line between good and evil. 40K lore, not so much.

As an ork player, and 'uge digester of Orky No-Wots I'd say Orks are definitly neutral, as others have said. We just enjoy a good Kumpin' and thats about it. We have no great overarching philosophy (besides the worship of Gork and Mork). Its just Krumpin' 'cross the ooniverse!

[Necron2.0]

The friend who introduced me to 40K several years ago put it best: "Warhammer 40K is a game of the bad guys versus the evil guys."

Don't look for good guys ... there aren't any.

[JxKxR]

You should read the part about the vespids in the tau codex, specifically the part about the communion helm. There is a hint that the vespids are being mind controlled. They are like America where we say we want to help you and make things better, but we just want your resources and as long as you are dumb enough to help us rape your land and use your bodies as meat shields we are happy to have you with us, but as soon as you reject us you are DOOMED! Most of the Tau don't realize this fact though and do think of them selves as the light of the galaxy bringing in new races to become part of the "mixing pot", but the other races are second to the Tau.
The Tau are just young and not much is known about them so in the fluff we only get propaganda, which is why I think the Tau fluff should only be thought of as pre-fluff. The Tau have real depth into their inner workings and right now we are only seeing the mask that they wear and have only had a few peeks at what is really underneath it all, and I'm sure that could be said about most of the races.

[Necron2.0]

They are like America where we say we want to help you and make things better, but we just want your resources and as long as you are dumb enough to help us rape your land and use your bodies as meat shields we are happy to have you with us, but as soon as you reject us you are DOOMED!

Dude, that's not like us at all. Remember, "Never put down to malicious intent what can easily be explained away as stupidity."

The "problem" (if there is one) with America is there actually is no plan. We have leaders who've proven time and again that their only skill is in reading a teleprompter. All of our leaders are corrupt and in the back pocket of someone. That "someone" is anyone BUT those who voted them into office. Our business leaders are all self-serving egotistical automatons, with no empathy towards anyone other than themselves and no accountability to anyone. "Our" businesses aren't ours anymore, but rather are "multinational entities" (which simply means they get to f*** EVERYONE over). Our news media (more media than news) is an unending stream of blatant lies or half-truths meant more for entertainment than information. Our news personalities are all editorialists with axes to grind (when was the last time you heard a news reporter just report the news - like Walter Cronkite - without adding his/her own f***ing color commentary?). As a result, our people are all misinformed, confused, distracted and conditioned to cry/laugh/rage at whatever crap story some media mogul TELLS them they should cry/laugh/rage at, and (of course) VOTE for whomever they tell them to.

No, if America is doing ill in the world it's not because it is intentional. It is because America as an entity is schizophrenic, with severe relapses every four to eight years (on years wholely divisible by four).

[JxKxR]

Dude, that's not like us at all. Remember, "Never put down to malicious intent what can easily be explained away as stupidity."

The "problem" (if there is one) with America is there actually is no plan. We have leaders who've proven time and again that their only skill is in reading a teleprompter. All of our leaders are corrupt and in the back pocket of someone. That "someone" is anyone BUT those who voted them into office. Our business leaders are all self-serving egotistical automatons, with no empathy towards anyone other than themselves and no accountability to anyone. "Our" businesses aren't ours anymore, but rather are "multinational entities" (which simply means they get to f*** EVERYONE over). Our news media (more media than news) is an unending stream of blatant lies or half-truths meant more for entertainment than information. Our news personalities are all editorialists with axes to grind (when was the last time you heard a news reporter just report the news - like Walter Cronkite - without adding his/her own f***ing color commentary?). As a result, our people are all misinformed, confused, distracted and conditioned to cry/laugh/rage at whatever crap story some media mogul TELLS them they should cry/laugh/rage at, and (of course) VOTE for whomever they tell them to.

No, if America is doing ill in the world it's not because it is intentional. It is because America as an entity is schizophrenic, with severe relapses every four to eight years (on years wholely divisible by four).

I agree with most of what you’re saying, but we have differing views on what is evil.

I think that you have to find out things for your self. I think that if you are just sitting there listening to the media and politicians, being close minded and set in your ways unable to change and refusing any conflicting idea to what you have been taught all along and embracing ignorance is the worst kind of evil. The people who don't find out what they are really voting for and vote straight ticket are ignorant and evil, in my opinion. The ignorant masses are the ones who give the power to the ones with the abilities to talk them into what ever bull crap they want accomplished. Hitler was an evil man, but he couldn't have done it alone. The ignorant gave him power.

Stupidity gives malicous intent wings.

[MaltonNecromancer]

Good guys? In war?!

Seriously?

First of all, you've got to address the issue of what exactly you mean by "good" and "evil" as concepts, which is such a vast subject there are degrees available in it (philosophy and ethics), and I ain't going near that with an 11' dungeon pole.

For me, I'm pretty much a pacifist politically speaking, and I can't actually see that many wars as justifiable. Having read Mark Baker's stomach-churning collection of Vietnam veterans' stories (called simply "'Nam") back when I was 15, I've harboured no illusions about the nature of war as anything other than a place where men try to kill each other for reasons that often barely even seem to make sense to them. The idea of "goodies" and "baddies" in a war strikes me as naive.

Having learned about things like "double veterans" and the Phoenix Program (the idea of an anti-terrorist unit dedicated to fighting a war using terror tactics is an almost laughable piece of moral doublethink), seriously, there are no good guys in wars. Yes, there are individually brave soldiers (I know many. And then there's people like the guy who was drafted, and wanted to serve his country, but was a true pacifist, and so refused to carry a rifle; hethen spent two tours in 'Nam being shot at by enemies, then spit on by his squadmates because he dared to refuse to kill) but "good guys"? In war?

No such things. Just no such thing, IMO. Armies are a mix of the incompetent, the monstrous, the psychopathic, the thuggish, and the professional, with the mix determining how many civilians are left weeping over their dead children at the end.

It's why I like 40K: for all it's grimdarky black comedy, it makes no bones about the fact that the wars fought in the Imperium are largely pointless, and driven by the collective weaknesses, insecurities, and vainglorious egos of those in power, be they human or alien. Kind of like almost every war fought in the real world.

[jorz192]

America as an entity is schizophrenic, with severe relapses every four to eight years (on years wholely divisible by four).

Don't insult schizophrenic people!

[JxKxR]

[QUOTE=MaltonNecromancer;128096]

And then there's people like the guy who was drafted, and wanted to serve his country, but was a true pacifist, and so refused to carry a rifle; hethen spent two tours in 'Nam being shot at by enemies, then spit on by his squadmates because he dared to refuse to kill) but "good guys"? In war?
[QUOTE]


People like to think good and bad are black and white, but they are abstract. I can understand why his squad mates spit on him. They work in a group and his ideals and ignorance of the situation he was in could have cost them their lives. Some people might think he was brave to not carry a gun and some people (like me) would say he is a coward and a traitor to his own side. It depends on your perspective and own reasons that come from your own life experiences. You read a book about ONE war and base your thoughts about war on that ONE, and Vietnam is a bad example of a war for many reasons.
Some wars are fought over for the wrong reasons. Do you think anyone could have peacefully talked Hitler into cutting it out? What about Kim Jong Il? Are the messages of peace getting through to him? Some people can't be reasoned with and while you try to get the insane to hear reason hundreds of innocent people die. When reason fails then you have to be brave enough to put your life on the line and say "No, I will not let you do as you please! I will not let you do what you want when it means the suffering of others! If it means my death then so be it, but I will not sit by and let injustice run wild!"
We all have are own set of morals. It’s what makes us, us.