GK Force Weapon Shennanigans

[DarkLink]

So, imagine a unit of Grey Knights assaults/is assaulted by a unit of Thunder Wolf Cavalry with a Wolf Lord. The Lord has a Wolf Tail Talisman (dispels psychic powers that target him on a 5+). The Grey Knights pass their psychic test to 'activate' their force weapons.

Does the Wolf Lord get to try and dispel the power if he takes a wound?



Now, under the Brotherhood of Psykers, Grey Knight unit's force weapons work a little differently. The Grey Knights pass the test, and their weapons now inflict Instant Death. At no point, as far as I can tell, is the Wolf Lord actually targeted by the psychic power. The power just affects the Grey Knights. The Wolf Lord is hit by an attack that causes Instant Death, but that attack itself is not a psychic power.

As I see it, the Wolf Lord is screwed.


Here's another way of looking at it. Would a Wolf Lord get to dispel the Hammerhand Psychic power? Hammerhand targets the Grey Knights, and makes their attacks Str 5. The Wolf Lord takes a Str 5 hit, but is not actually targeted by a psychic power, so he gets no dispel. Now just replace "Str 5" with "Instant Death", and you have the force weapon activation.


Edit: Oh, and a second thing, just for confirmation.

A Grand Master is attached to another unit of Grey Knights. The GKs cast hammerhand, giving their unit +1 str. Because the Grand Master is part of the unit, he also benefits, gaining +1 str. While you allocate attacks as if the GM was a separate unit, the GM is still part of the unit of GKs for all other purposes. Since Hammerhand/Force Weapon activation isn't part of the attack allocation, you still treat the GM as part of the unit, so he still benefits.

Now, the GM does not have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. That means that when he activates his Force Weapon, he does it normally (wait till after saves are made, then pick one unsaved wound and pass a psychic test to make it inflict Instant Death). However, if the unit of GKs activate their Force Weapons, the GM is included in the effect and all his attacks inflict Instant Death.

So, use the squad to activate Force Weapons (brotherhood banner anyone?), and use the GM to cast Hammerhand.

[Nungunz]

Sounds right to me. Both with Brotherhood of Psykers and Hammerhand, the wolf lord is never the target. Seems like the Brotherhood of Psykers one might be FAQ'd at some point.....but right now I see no fault in your logic.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Sounds like quite the..."Killer" combo. And i don't see anything wrong in your logic. The psyker powers are not targeting the wolf lord Therefor he can not make a Wolf tail talisman save against it, still gets a SS save though. and can still be dispelled by a rune priest(on a 4+) within 24" (on a 3+ with Njal).

[armbarred]

Except that because the Grand-Master is an IC, he must activate his Nemesis Froce Weapon on his own. He does not benefit from the Brotherhood of Psykers rule at all. It explicitly states this in the codex (can't quote as I am at work and not near the codex).

But I would say the Talisman could be used to nullify the ID property of any wounds allocated to the Lord. Just wouldn't be able to turn off the whole unit.

But, things get really weird when you attach an IC without the Brotherhood rule to a unit with the Banner...

[Tynskel]

no, the power is not directed at the Wolf Lord. Gotta use a 'psychic hood' or in this case, a runic weapon to stop these powers.

Just as a Blood Angel's Librarian using Sanguine Sword does not get negated by the Wolf Lord, because the power wasn't targeting the Wolf Lord.

[dethangel]

Except that because the Grand-Master is an IC, he must activate his Nemesis Froce Weapon on his own. He does not benefit from the Brotherhood of Psykers rule at all. It explicitly states this in the codex (can't quote as I am at work and not near the codex).

But I would say the Talisman could be used to nullify the ID property of any wounds allocated to the Lord. Just wouldn't be able to turn off the whole unit.

But, things get really weird when you attach an IC without the Brotherhood rule to a unit with the Banner...

you must be a wolf player. "oh no, that would make my overpowered cavalry unit, less powerful i dont care what the rule says you cant do that.. noo.waaahhh"
as onlythe GK unit is targeted by the power the wargear has no effect. sorry .
my poor wolfies

[Lemt]

Except that because the Grand-Master is an IC, he must activate his Nemesis Froce Weapon on his own. He does not benefit from the Brotherhood of Psykers rule at all. It explicitly states this in the codex (can't quote as I am at work and not near the codex).

But I would say the Talisman could be used to nullify the ID property of any wounds allocated to the Lord. Just wouldn't be able to turn off the whole unit.

But, things get really weird when you attach an IC without the Brotherhood rule to a unit with the Banner...

As you say, the rules specify that ICs have to make their own roll.
As for Talismans, RAW they are useless against GK Force Weapons, but I could see it get FAQed.

[armbarred]

@deth - Actually, I am Grey Knight player that cannot stand the Space Wolf codex. Don't make assumptions like that.

So are you saying the Talisman doesn't work on an IC's force weapon? Cause he isn't targeting the opponent then either... The force weapon works the same, it just is one roll one a wound is inflicted instead of waiting to allocate. Not that big of a difference really. If I were to play someone who had a piece of wargear/ability/special rule/pulled out of their a$#, I would allow an attempted negation for the wounds placed on that model only. One separate roll for each separate wound inflicted.

[Lemt]

@deth - Actually, I am Grey Knight player that cannot stand the Space Wolf codex. Don't make assumptions like that.

So are you saying the Talisman doesn't work on an IC's force weapon? Cause he isn't targeting the opponent then either... The force weapon works the same, it just is one roll one a wound is inflicted instead of waiting to allocate. Not that big of a difference really. If I were to play someone who had a piece of wargear/ability/special rule/pulled out of their a$#, I would allow an attempted negation for the wounds placed on that model only. One separate roll for each separate wound inflicted.

I would too, but RAW doesn't say that.

For the record, I don't play wolves either.

[RealGenius]

The Talisman wargear entry doesn't say "targeted", it reads "... is affected by an enemy psychic power..."

What about Runic Armor? "... 5+ invulnerable against all wounds caused by psychic attacks..." Wound Hammerhand wounds count as being "caused by psychic attacks"?