gender balance in 40k

[Gotthammer]

because let's be fair; the Imperium is about as misogynistic a place as could be imagined

[citation needed]


Female soliders, female planetary Governors, female Magii, female High Lords, next to no gender discrimination in the background at all...

[MaltonNecromancer]

[citation needed]


Female soliders, female planetary Governors, female Magii, female High Lords, next to no gender discrimination in the background at all...

Ah heh. Heh heh. Heh heh heh heh he he ha ha ha ha HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!

Female soldiers? Where? Model citations needed. Oh, and they've got to be anonymous grunts ('cause we're being equal here), not members of a special unit, special characters, or special releases. If you're quoting a novel, they have to be from a unit where the gender ratio is at least four females to every six males (If we were being gender equal, I'd obviously say one-to-one, but I don't think I'll be that unfair).

I'll also accept a single picture of an obviously female IG in an official GW published Codex or rulebook. She cant have special powers, be unique; she has to be a regular grunt amongst regular grunts.

Bit like this:




I have never heard of a single named female Planetary Governor in all of 40K's fiction. All the pictures of the High Lords present them as male.

And AS for "next to no gender discrimination in the background at all..."?!! No female marines, no male Sororitas; ditto Sisters of Silence - I mean, what? Are there no male psychic nulls? That's not just discrimination, that's outright segregation! That's gender-based apartheid!!

Sweet mercy.

Discrimination isn't just name calling. It's denial of the equal chance to die in power armour that doesn't look like a corset.

Oh, and fuzzbucket - it's the subtlety of that video that I admire. She's just letting the music do the talking, overly sexualised imagery be damned! *facepalm*

[Valkerie]

Ah heh. Heh heh. Heh heh heh heh he he ha ha ha ha HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!

Female soldiers? Where? Model citations needed. Oh, and they've got to be anonymous grunts ('cause we're being equal here), not members of a special unit, special characters, or special releases. If you're quoting a novel, they have to be from a unit where the gender ratio is at least four females to every six males (If we were being gender equal, I'd obviously say one-to-one, but I don't think I'll be that unfair).

I'll also accept a single picture of an obviously female IG in an official GW published Codex or rulebook. She cant have special powers, be unique; she has to be a regular grunt amongst regular grunts.

Bit like this:




I have never heard of a single named female Planetary Governor in all of 40K's fiction. All the pictures of the High Lords present them as male.

And AS for "next to no gender discrimination in the background at all..."?!! No female marines, no male Sororitas; ditto Sisters of Silence - I mean, what? Are there no male psychic nulls? That's not just discrimination, that's outright segregation! That's gender-based apartheid!!

Sweet mercy.

Discrimination isn't just name calling. It's denial of the equal chance to die in power armour that doesn't look like a corset.

Oh, and fuzzbucket - it's the subtlety of that video that I admire. She's just letting the music do the talking, overly sexualised imagery be damned! *facepalm*

Just off the top of my head, the Caiphas Cain novels. The regiment he is in has about a 50/50 ratio of men to women, and is led by a female colonel. Jurgen, Cain's assisstant, is a psychic null and also quite obviously male. Also, from the same source, Amberly Vale, a female Inquisitor Lady.

And, as Melissa said in another thread, the Imperium is not discriminatory, it screws with everyone equally.


On topic, I imagine the Sisters of Battle also enjoy a good witchburning, and have a fun time saving heretics by showing them the error of their ways. (Of course, once they're saved, they'll be shot so that they can't possibly slip out of the Emperor's grace again.)

I think that when they're cleansing a town of the taint of heresy, they probably gather around the bonfires and sign hymns to the glory of the Emperor. This would reaffirm their faith, (and drown out the screams of the heretics as they perish.)

[Gotthammer]

Female soldiers? Where? Model citations needed. Oh, and they've got to be anonymous grunts ('cause we're being equal here), not members of a special unit, special characters, or special releases.

Here you go: [URL="http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rt501imperials2.htm"]Link[/URL]

If you're quoting a novel, they have to be from a unit where the gender ratio is at least four females to every six males (If we were being gender equal, I'd obviously say one-to-one, but I don't think I'll be that unfair).

We have Cain (which also is a source on entirely female regiments), The Killing Ground has female units, Deathworld refers to female Catachan soldiers, every Cadian is trained to fight if needs be - no mention of gender there. A low ratio in combat forces is different from misogynistic.
Elements of the Imperium such as the Arbites (Shira Calpurnia series), Mechanicus (Cain series, Mechanicum), Administratum (Ultramarines series), Inquisition (everything ever) all are highly inclusive of female members, and show no signs of any discrimination based on a person's gender.

I'll also accept a single picture of an obviously female IG in an official GW published Codex or rulebook. She cant have special powers, be unique; she has to be a regular grunt amongst regular grunts.

Bit like this:

[URL="http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/1/3/14524_sm-Humor,%20Imperial%20Guard,%20Poster,%20Rogue%20Tra der.jpg"]Here's a link to a small version[/URL], don't have a better one. The 13th Black Crusade sourcebook has a propagander poster showing a female Catachanesque soldier standing alongside a Cadian, Marine and Sororitas.

I have never heard of a single named female Planetary Governor in all of 40K's fiction. All the pictures of the High Lords present them as male.

"Sector Governor Tanit Koenig" - IA 9. The Abbess Sanctorum is eligable to be a High Lord.

And AS for "next to no gender discrimination in the background at all..."?!! No female marines, no male Sororitas; ditto Sisters of Silence - I mean, what? Are there no male psychic nulls? That's not just discrimination, that's outright segregation! That's gender-based apartheid!!

Sweet mercy.

That's a totally different thing from misogyny - marines are male only due to "science", SoB due to laws - the SoS could be seen to be forerunners but not enough is know about them.
Male psychic nulls: Jurgen, as mentioned, and every Cullexus assassin up until Nemesis was published (which had a male super-null type thing).


So, any actual examples of misogyny?

Discrimination isn't just name calling.

And discrimination isn't the same thing as [URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/misogyny"]misogyny[/url] either.


So, I've given you some more sources on how the Imperium is not misogynistic and shows no active discrimination. There is passive discrimination in the sense that there are limited models produced and the artwork is dude-centric, but it is escapism targeted at boys and men and is rooted in reality rather than any mechanic from the Imperium's background.
If you can point me to any bits of 40k that actively say "women are treated as badly by the Imperium as you could imagine" (your original statement), I'd be most interested to hear it.

[DrLove42]

Can't remember numbers, or regiment but one of the main characters in Titanicus is a female member of the PDF. Theres a few other female members in her squad, until they....have an existence crisis (not an existencial crisis...there is a difference)

[MaltonNecromancer]

Here you go: Link

You're quoting 1st edition at me?! My fault, should have said modern. 4th or 5th edition - the one we play now. Female IG models have gone the way of the Squats.

We have Cain (which also is a source on entirely female regiments), The Killing Ground has female units,

Conceded

[QUOTE]Deathworld refers to female Catachan soldiers, every Cadian is trained to fight if needs be - no mention of gender there.[/QUOTE


That must be why there's so many pictures/models/female IC's. Sarcasm aside, a throwawar one sentence reference does not gender equality make.

A low ratio in combat forces is different from misogynistic.

I disagree, but that's okay; a sematic argument here would be unhelpful.

Elements of the Imperium such as the Arbites (Shira Calpurnia series), Mechanicus (Cain series, Mechanicum), Administratum (Ultramarines series), Inquisition (everything ever) all are highly inclusive of female members, and show no signs of any discrimination based on a person's gender.

Conceded.

Bit like this:
Here's a link to a small version, don't have a better one. The 13th Black Crusade sourcebook has a propaganda poster showing a female Catachanesque soldier standing alongside a Cadian, Marine and Sororitas.

1st ed again? Anything for 4th/5th ed? I'll concede the 13th Black Crusade. I hope the point of how few pictures of women there are in the GW published materials has been made however.

"Sector Governor Tanit Koenig" - IA 9. The Abbess Sanctorum is eligable to be a High Lord.

So the head of an all-female sect? What about the other High Lords? You know, the ones that allow both genders? Any women there? Or does the Imperium make women have to stay amongst their own kind?

That's a totally different thing from misogyny - marines are male only due to "science"

Hmmm. I've been over this so many times I'm not going near it. I point blank refuse to discuss it.

Male psychic nulls: Jurgen, as mentioned, and every Cullexus assassin up until Nemesis was published (which had a male super-null type thing).

Kind of my point: why weren't theyrecruited into the Sisters of Silence too? The answer: the Imperium segregates it's people based on gender quite a lot of the time.

I think you and I disagree on what misogyny is. You view it as an active hatred/distaste, like KKK racism; I view it as a more pervasive, passive mindset, like the middle-class voter who won't vote for the candidate of arab origin.

So, I've given you some more sources on how the Imperium is not misogynistic and shows no active discrimination.

You made a good go of it, yes. Not agreeing with you yet.

There is passive discrimination in the sense that there are limited models produced and the artwork is dude-centric

We both agree here.

, but it is escapism targeted at boys and men

This old chestnut. Saying "this is the reason" does not make the reason okay!

and is rooted in reality rather than any mechanic from the Imperium's background.

Generally agreed.

[QUOTE]]If you can point me to any bits of 40k that actively say "women are treated as badly by the Imperium as you could imagine" (your original statement), I'd be most interested to hear it. [/QUOTE

Sisters Repentia. Marines who fail are given the "punishement" of being made a Dreanought (if we're going 1st edition), or consigned to suicide missions (in their spiffy armour and with their honour intact). Sororitas who fail get stripped of their armour, and made to wear negligees made of purity scrolls, humiliating them (in the artwork), masks to nullify their faces so they're not real people any more, then literally whipped by a fellow Sister, forced to die as atonement. If they're really unlucky, it's the Penitent Engine for them! Truly the price of failure for a the toughest female warriors in 40K is so much worse thanthat of their peers.

So there's that.

Plus, just the abscence of female sculpts. For me, that's disrespectful enough.

[wittdooley]

The Adeptus Arbites have women as officers in Nightbringer
Planetary Governer is a woman also in Nightbringer.
Female Guardsman HEAVILY focused on in Titanicus.
Titan princeps can be female - both Titanicus and Mechanicum

[Fellend]

mi·sog·y·ny
   /mɪˈsɒdʒəni, maɪ-/ Show Spelled[mi-soj-uh-nee, mahy-] Show IPA
–noun
hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.


I'd say that the Imperium shows nothing of this. There's no suggestions that they are hated, disliked or mistrusted.
On the top of my head I can think of Dawn of War 2, where Something something Female Ambassador becomes Planetary governor.

On the other hand Dark Heresy, claims that few women enjoy the same oppertunities as their male counterparts except within the Ecclisarchy where the numbers are closer to even. (page 30 DH core rulebook)
Dark heresy also produces alot of pictures of females in the rank and file, without searching through the entire book I can think of the Arbitrator and the Death cult assassins, the girl with the huge gun on one of the Chapter, pages, the female commisar, the Ordos girl (though I suppose she's not rank and file), the Queen of one of the planets, and of course the front page.

I'm sure if you actually looked through the book and its supplements you'd find more

And about punishments. Punishments are effective if they target something the victim values. To an SoB getting stripped down and whipped might be horrible and degrading (though most likely it was just a sadistic model creator) but to a space marine? Oh my, I get a whipping... it's not like I don't get beat up everyday in the daily training rituals or possess a body made to take injury...
On the other hand, having him stripped of his honors and made to go on a pentient crusade or be forced to train recruits instead of having going on glorious campaigns will hurt one of the things he values most, his pride and honor.

[eldargal]

Sorry Malton, but we have mixed gender IG units, all-female IG units, female commissars, female Inquisitors, female planetary governors, female Arbites etc. etc. Not to mention the IG codex names at least one Imperial world (Cadia) that recruits its entire population in one way or another. There is just not a shred of evidence to suggest that the Imperium oppressed women any more than it oppresses men.

There are three planetary governors I can remember in the fluff, one in Nightbringer, one in Dawn of War II, one in the Ultramarines: the movie comic book. There is a female general, Jenit Sulla, in one of the Ciaphas Cain novels.

Pictures are irrelevent, the fluff is in the text. I agree the lack of female sculpts is shameful, it would benice if FW at least would put out a female Cadian conversion pack. The sister repentia are rather revolting as well.

[Chuck777]

In Helsreach, one of the prominent IG Officers is female, as well as the Leader of the Titan Detachment assigned to the Hive. Both play fairly large roles in the novel. In addition, other female guardsmen are mentioned in passing.