"Like The Wind!"

[wkz]

My favourite bit is when the Codex tells you to do something that the Rulebook says you can't but there's no conflict between them. That bit's classic.

It's the way you tell 'em.

My favourite bit is when the Codex does not unshackle the rulebook's "you can't", but you keep saying you can. That bit's classic.

By your logic, "First rank, Second Rank" and "Bring down my target" will allow you to shoot out of CC, and "Run Run Run" allows you to run out of CC. But that's how ridiculous RAW is supposed to be, correct?

[Paul]

Since you've lost track, I'll give you my version in points form:

1) Order can be issued to unit in CC.
2) Order is passed successfully.
3) Unit gets to make a free shooting attack.
3-1) Can any and all units shoot in CC? Order does not say. Order says you must, emphasis on must.Rulebook says No.Therefore, there is a conflict between "must shoot" and "Cannot shoot" which is resolved in favor of the codex.
4) Codex > BRB in event of conflict, but there is no conflict.Except the one I showed you above.
Unit shoots.

5) Unit gets to make a free move, 1d6.
5-1) Can any and all units move in CC? Order does not sayOrder says the Unit must move.. Rulebook says NoExcept that you totally can, see "Pile In Moves."6) Codex > BRB in event of conflict, but there is no conflict.You're right, you can move in assault.
Unit does move 1d6.

7) Is unit in combat?
8) BRB: (paraphrase) units must have at least 1 model in b2b to fight in the assault phase.
Unit did not move, thus still in BtB. Unit is still in combat.
(yes, this two are truth if the unit gets to move in the first place)

Relevant notes:
the 1d6" movement is NOT considered a Run move, but is considered under the superclass MOVE, with no lifting of the restrictions shackled on you due to CC. You can move in CC, see "pile in moves" and "charge reaction" Your are compelled to do it if you give the order, no questions asked, but you're stuck there due to that close combat. No, you're not.

The way I think about it:
If you have to choose between breaking a BRB rule or your Codex rule, start by examining every single rule that comes into contact, and determine which rule exactly the Codex is breaking. Yes, our good Captain's order does break certain rules, but ultimately his order does not break the CORE movement and shooting rules. Why not? Seems like they do to me.

Thus, the core rules for movement and shooting still work the same, including any additional shackles such as CC's restriction on movement and shooting.Not in the event of conflict they don't.

My favourite bit is when the Codex does not unshackle the rulebook's "you can't", but you keep saying you can. That bit's classic.

By your logic, "First rank, Second Rank" and "Bring down my target" will allow you to shoot out of CC, yes, they do. and "Run Run Run" allows you to run out of CCNo, because you specifically cannot "Run" in CQB. You may MOVE, but you may not RUN.. But that's how ridiculous RAW is supposed to be, correct?Yeah, RAW is a *****. But so are double standards.

Edits in red.

[SeattleDV8]

I though you were bored Hivemind....heh
Now try to answer my questions, no more dodging.

Paul: you claim the order says 'must' , it doesn't
"If the order is sucessfully issued, the ordered unit immediately makes a shooting attack (it may not run). When this has been resolved, the unit immediately moves D6" in a direction of your choice."
There is nothing in this rule that allows you to shoot when locked in CC.
There is no 'must' anywhere in the order.

[wkz]

Since you've lost track, I'll give you my version in points form:

1) Order can be issued to unit in CC.
2) Order is passed successfully.
3) Unit gets to make a free shooting attack.
3-1) Can any and all units shoot in CC? Order does not say. Order says you must, emphasis on must.There are a LOT of "Must" rules that are overruled by other rules. I do believe this is one of them.. but I'll give it to you, Must does sound definitive, especially when it Must be done in the codex vs rulebook. Rulebook says No. Therefore, there is a conflict between "must shoot" and "Cannot shoot" which is resolved in favor of the codex.IMO there is only a conflict of "shooting attack". A shooting attack is a shooting attack, and follows all the rules for shooting attacks, include that little rule that says you cannot shoot in CC.
4) Codex > BRB in event of conflict, but there is no conflict.Except the one I showed you above.Explained above.
Unit cannot shoot.

5) Unit gets to make a free move, 1d6.
5-1) Can any and all units move in CC? Order does not say. Order says the Unit must move.. Again, as above.Rulebook says No.Except that you totally can, see "Pile In Moves.""Pile In Moves" is a rule which prohibit ALL movement EXCEPT FOR the special "moving into base contact with the enemy" pile in move.
6) Codex > BRB in event of conflict, but there is no conflict. You're right, you can move in assault.If you're moving by using Pile in moves, then yes.
Unit does not move 1d6.

7) Is unit in combat?
8) BRB: (paraphrase) units must have at least 1 model in b2b to fight in the assault phase.
Unit did not move, thus still in BtB. Unit is still in combat.
(yes, this two are truth if the unit gets to move in the first place)

Relevant notes:
the 1d6" movement is NOT considered a Run move, but is considered under the superclass MOVE, with no lifting of the restrictions shackled on you due to CC. You can move in CC, see "pile in moves" and "charge reaction" But only in the case of Pile-in moves. Our dear Captain's orders are not specifically listed as a pile-in move.Your are compelled to do it if you give the order, no questions asked, but you're stuck there due to that close combat. No, you're not.IMO, yes you are.

The way I think about it:
If you have to choose between breaking a BRB rule or your Codex rule, start by examining every single rule that comes into contact, and determine which rule exactly the Codex is breaking. Yes, our good Captain's order does break certain rules, but ultimately his order does not break the CORE movement and shooting rules. Why not? Seems like they do to me.Hmmm... how to explain it better... ... see below

Thus, the core rules for movement and shooting still work the same, including any additional shackles such as CC's restriction on movement and shooting.Not in the event of conflict they don't.Here's the point: IMO they don't conflict

My favourite bit is when the Codex does not unshackle the rulebook's "you can't", but you keep saying you can. That bit's classic.

By your logic, "First rank, Second Rank" and "Bring down my target" will allow you to shoot out of CC yes, they do. And I say no you can't, and "Run Run Run" allows you to run out of CC No, because you specifically cannot "Run" in CQB. You may MOVE, but you may not RUN.. ... ... run is a form of move. And where specifically says running is disallowed?. But that's how ridiculous RAW is supposed to be, correct? Yeah, RAW is a *****. But so are double standards.I fear this statement can also be applied to your statements

My responses in blue...
...
And can you please don't quote-color answer this? Its surprisingly tough to respond to your post.


Let me repeat my position: The part we both agree we are disagreeing on is the fact inside these core rules there's a subclause called "Close combat", and it is playing merry hell with the Orders as they are. So does the Orders allow the IG units to do otherwise impossible stuff such as running out of close combat?


My stance, and why I disagree with your stance is because ultimately all the Orders are using the core rules to do their job for them. "Use a shooting attack", "Run, but with 3D6, pick highest", "fire 3 shots", "move D6", etc. It does not say HOW to shoot, run or move, it let the codex explain how to do so.

For example, "First rank fire, second rank fire!!" says: Choose a target, unit immediately "fire 3 shots" (or 2, but I digress). It does not include the pages upon pages of information regarding the shooting phase, including: Who can you shoot. How to roll BS. How to allocate wounds. What is cover. Etc, etc, etc...

So, if there is a rule inside "Shoot" that says "you cannot shoot" (due to lack of LOS, or due to unit being in Close Combat). what happens? My opinion: you just simply CAN'T.

This is not a case of Codex > Rulebook. This is the case of Codex using the Rulebook to do its talking for it, and the Rulebook saying "No, you can't".

Similarly, MOVE D6 (which started this whole mess), is under the movement rules: you still have to follow the rules for moving through enemy models, difficult dangerous and impassable terrain, various movement distances due to unit types, and movement in close combat. (which, due to the "Pile in" rules consist of ONLY "move into BtB or closer to the enemy, or you don't move")

All rules apply, all the time. You cannot ignore DT rolls during movement now, can you? Your Rough Riders is still affected by Fleet now, arn't they? Why then should double standards be applied to the "Movement in Close Combat" rule? That rule, as with every other, should, would and must apply. Unless overwritten of course, but the Codex did not overwrite CC rules with "can move even if unit is in close combat".

All the codex did ending up saying is "Move", basically asking the rulebook to fill in the blanks... and due to CC rules the end result is "No Movement."


tl;dr:

This is not a case of Codex > Rulebook. This is the case of Codex using the Rulebook to do its talking for it, and the Rulebook saying "No, you can't"... and the codex going nyron~~~ .

[SeattleDV8]

Well stated WKZ

[Paul]

Alright. I don't use Al'Rahem or orders anyways being the Forge World Armored Battlegroup.

I actually was extremely surprised to learn that orders were allowed to be Issued into CQB at all, so there you have it.

Good job boys, you've won me over. :P

[dannyat2460]

Any more questions as i think WKZ just laid this baby to rest