Grey Knight Great vs. Armor and Psykers

[YourMomsBox]

Was looking pretty solidly through the codex, and was surprised at the number of ways to be taking out Armor thats been pretty heavy with all armies now a days.

Let's look at some of their Codex specific options that can target all armor ranges.

Shooting:

1) (AV 10-14) Jokaero w/ their Lascannon/Multimelta universal weapon
2) (AV 10-14) Orbital Strike Relay - Lance Strike
3) (AV 10-14) Librarian - Warp Rift
4) (AV 10-14) 5 or more Psykers - Psychic Barrage
5) (AV 10-14) Vindicare Assassin - Turbo Penetrator
6) (AV 10-14) Daemonhost - Unholy Gaze

Close combat:

1) (AV 10-14) Any Grey Knight using Might of Titan [+1S plus extra D6 AP]
2) (AV 10-14) Brother Captain Stern - Zone of Banishment [Only works against Walkers, or other units with a Strength value]
3) (AV 10-14) Banisher using Might of Titan [a whopping S8 plus 3D6 AP]


A great use of Shooting is to take a Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor with a Psyocculum and a Conversion Beamer. Shooting at any Psyker or unit containing a Psyker, take the Scatter from your Conversion Beamer and subtract the BS 10, and you basically have an auto-hitting S 10 AP 1 killer. Want more bang for your buck? Try adding some Techmarines, say 3 with Orbital Strike Relays. Now your hitting any Psyker unit with 4 S 10 AP 1 shots, enough to wipe out any unit. Want more leeway, then use the Psyk-out Bomb, and you have 3 automatic Perils of the Warp attacks in addition to everything else. Mass troops with that Psyker? Then use the D3 Large Blast Barrage Bomb for potentially 9 Large Blast Blasts hitting that squad. This is great for placing the first blast on the end of a mixed-Psyker squad and potentially taking out an additional unit nearby with the multiple-blast effect. If you want to go 'overkill', you could always take a Henchmen Warband loaded with Space Monkeys with BS 10 Lascannons.

The question I have, is if a Psyker is in a transport, can he be targeted by the Psyocculum? If so, so much for that Land Raider giving you protection.

All numbers assuming the +1 Attack for charging. As for close combat, the best tank-killer (against AV 10) I can see is taking a Libby w/ Daemon Hammer (Hammerhand/Might of Titan), and Coteaz (Hammerhand) w/ 12 Arco-Flagellants and now you have 60 S7 2D6 AP attacks as well as Coteaz's 3 S5 2D6 AP master-crafted Daemon Hammer attacks and the Libby's Daemon Hammer attacks as well. If Auto-hitting, your looking at 58 Glances or 56 Pens. Pretty solid. Hitting on 6's, you're still looking at 9 Pens.

Against AV 14, then you want the Librarian and Coteaz from above, but take Banishers w/ Eviscerators. This can get pricey at 30 pts/model, but even a squad of 6 can do 12 S10 3D6 AP hits. Is the AP over-kill, yes, but if you want to make sure that Land Raider or Monolith isn't moving, or even against an AV 14 Building, there's no better way, short of using a Dread Knight.

What other ideas has anyone else come up with?

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Basic Banishers w/ their S6 + 2 D6 AP AV 10 91% Penetrating 83%
12 72% Penetrating 58%
14 42% Penetrating 28%

Banishers w/ Might of Titan + Hammerhand S8 + 3D6 AP AV 10 Auto- Penetrating
12 98% Penetrating 94%
14 96% Penetrating 74%

10 Arco-flagellants w/ 50 Attacks on the charge against an AV 10 Vehicle gives us:

Glances Pens
Auto-hit: 8.3 None
4+: 4.2
6+: 1.3

Was looking pretty solidly through the codex, and was surprised at the number of ways to be taking out Armor thats been pretty heavy with all armies now a days.

Let's look at some of their Codex specific options that can target all armor ranges.

Shooting:

1) (AV 10-14) Jokaero w/ their Lascannon/Multimelta universal weapon
2) (AV 10-14) Orbital Strike Relay - Lance Strike
3) (AV 10-14) Librarian - Warp Rift
4) (AV 10-14) 5 or more Psykers - Psychic Barrage
5) (AV 10-14) Vindicare Assassin - Turbo Penetrator
6) (AV 10-14) Daemonhost - Unholy Gaze

Close combat:

1) (AV 10-14) Any Grey Knight using Might of Titan [+1S plus extra D6 AP]
2) (AV 10-14) Brother Captain Stern - Zone of Banishment [Only works against Walkers, or other units with a Strength value]
3) (AV 10-14) Banisher using Might of Titan [a whopping S8 plus 3D6 AP]


A great use of Shooting is to take a Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor with a Psyocculum and a Conversion Beamer. Shooting at any Psyker or unit containing a Psyker, take the Scatter from your Conversion Beamer and subtract the BS 10, and you basically have an auto-hitting S 10 AP 1 killer. Want more bang for your buck? Try adding some Techmarines, say 3 with Orbital Strike Relays. Now your hitting any Psyker unit with 4 S 10 AP 1 shots, enough to wipe out any unit. Want more leeway, then use the Psyk-out Bomb, and you have 3 automatic Perils of the Warp attacks in addition to everything else. Mass troops with that Psyker? Then use the D3 Large Blast Barrage Bomb for potentially 9 Large Blast Blasts hitting that squad. This is great for placing the first blast on the end of a mixed-Psyker squad and potentially taking out an additional unit nearby with the multiple-blast effect. If you want to go 'overkill', you could always take a Henchmen Warband loaded with Space Monkeys with BS 10 Lascannons.

The question I have, is if a Psyker is in a transport, can he be targeted by the Psyocculum? If so, so much for that Land Raider giving you protection.

All numbers assuming the +1 Attack for charging. As for close combat, the best tank-killer (against AV 10) I can see is taking a Libby w/ Daemon Hammer (Hammerhand/Might of Titan), and Coteaz (Hammerhand) w/ 12 Arco-Flagellants and now you have 60 S7 2D6 AP attacks as well as Coteaz's 3 S5 2D6 AP master-crafted Daemon Hammer attacks and the Libby's Daemon Hammer attacks as well. If Auto-hitting, your looking at 58 Glances or 56 Pens. Pretty solid. Hitting on 6's, you're still looking at 9 Pens.

Against AV 14, then you want the Librarian and Coteaz from above, but take Banishers w/ Eviscerators. This can get pricey at 30 pts/model, but even a squad of 6 can do 12 S10 3D6 AP hits. Is the AP over-kill, yes, but if you want to make sure that Land Raider or Monolith isn't moving, or even against an AV 14 Building, there's no better way, short of using a Dread Knight.

What other ideas has anyone else come up with?

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Stats below are only for Banishers in C.C. against Vehicles, Arco-flagellants and Death Cult Assassins against vehicles and Troops
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Basic Banishers w/ their S6 + 2 D6 AP AV 10 91% Penetrating 83%
12 72% Penetrating 58%
14 42% Penetrating 28%

Banishers w/ Might of Titan + Hammerhand S8 + 3D6 AP AV 10 Auto- Penetrating
12 98% Penetrating 94%
14 96% Penetrating 74%

5 Banishers w/ 2 Attacks on the charge gives us:

S6+2D6 (Eviscerator) S8+3D6 (Eviscerator + Might of Titan)
Hits Glances Pens Hits Glances Pens
AV 14 Auto-hit: 10 1 1 AV 14 Auto-hit: 10 1 6
4+: 7 0 0 4+: 5 0 3
6+: 1 0 0 6+: 2 0 0.5

As you can see, your ideal AV 14 target is one that is already Immobilized. 5 Banishers w/ Eviscerators is costing us about 150 points (30 per model), so if you want to increase the odds of destroying that Land Raider, make sure you focus on your point total. These guys can still be used as S8 power fist attacks, but as you'll see, we have much better Henchmen for that.


10 Arco-flagellants w/ 50 Attacks on the charge against an AV 10 Vehicle gives us:

Glances Pens w/ Hammerhand (S5) Glances Pens
Auto-hit: 8.3 None Auto-hit: 16.6 8.3
4+: 4.15 4+: 8.3 4.15
6+: 1.3 6+: 2.6 1.3


10 Death Cult Assassins w/ 40 Attacks on the charge against an AV 10 Vehicle gives us:

Glances Pens w/ Hammerhand (S5) Glances Pens
Auto-hit: 6.6 None Auto-hit: 13.3 6.6
4+: 3.3 4+: 6.6 3.3
6+: 1.1 6+: 1.0 0.5

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Against models with basic Armor Saves:

10 Arco-flagellants give you an average of 50 Attacks, 33 Hits and 22 Wounds.

Failed 2+ Saves = 3.6
Failed 3+ Saves = 7.3
Failed 4+ Saves = 11
Failed 5+ Saves = 14.6
Failed 6+ Saves = 18.3

10 Death Cult Assassins w/ power weapons give you an average of 40 Attacks, 27 Hits and 14 Wounds.

Seeing the numbers above, at best against a 6+ Armor Save, you'll potentially get 18 failed saves with the Arcos, whereas with the DCA's and their power weapons you're getting 14 no-save wounds making them (Death Cult Assassins) your best multi-attack unit.

Now against an Invulnerable Save, taking those 14 Wounds and comparing them w/ Failed Invulnerable Saves we get:

Failed invulnerable 2+ Saves = 2.3
Failed invulnerable 3+ Saves = 4.6
Failed invulnerable 4+ Saves = 7
Failed invulnerable 5+ Saves = 9.3
Failed invulnerable 6+ Saves = 11.6

Now against models with ONLY an invulnerable save, you'll want the more Wounds you get with the Arco-flagellants.

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Numbers provided are what I came up with. If their wrong , so be it. I put them there for anyone who isn't as bored as I was, and needed a visual with what I came up with.

[Bean]

You seem to have forgotten the Psycannon, which is an excellent anti-armor weapon against all armor values. A terminator's Psycannon puts that Jokaero lascannon to shame against all types of vehicles.

Psycannons are the Grey Knights' go-to choice for a reason: they do everything, including anti-armor against all armor values, and they can do it while moving. The only place they're lacking at all, really, is in range--and you can fill that gap with the almost absurdly good psybolt/rifledread, which is good against everything but AV:14.

I mean, have you been looking at what other people have been posting about Grey Knights at all? These are the good anti-tank options in the codex--and they're good enough that you don't really need to worry about shoe-horning other stuff in. Certainly not Jokaeros or anti-tank flagellents or orbital bombardments.

[Denied]

You seem to have forgotten the Psycannon, which is an excellent anti-armor weapon against all armor values. A terminator's Psycannon puts that Jokaero lascannon to shame against all types of vehicles.

Psycannons are the Grey Knights' go-to choice for a reason: they do everything, including anti-armor against all armor values, and they can do it while moving. The only place they're lacking at all, really, is in range--and you can fill that gap with the almost absurdly good psybolt/rifledread, which is good against everything but AV:14.

I mean, have you been looking at what other people have been posting about Grey Knights at all? These are the good anti-tank options in the codex--and they're good enough that you don't really need to worry about shoe-horning other stuff in. Certainly not Jokaeros or anti-tank flagellents or orbital bombardments.

You know I am a little torn on the Rifledread/psybolt ... its basically turning it into a IG Hydra but 60pts more than the Hydra... sadly it is the best thing in this codex for your average tank popper.

I like the idea of having Jokaero but basically they are something you move onto the board with a 25point HQ and drop in cover and never move in order to utilize them. Arguably they are cheap in this regard because its only 35pts a model but they only have BS3 and that's a big no go in most lists.

Hands down the best GK anti tank is the psycannon but then you are forced into a 24' bubble to really benefit from it.

[Bean]

You know I am a little torn on the Rifledread/psybolt ... its basically turning it into a IG Hydra but 60pts more than the Hydra... sadly it is the best thing in this codex for your average tank popper.

I like the idea of having Jokaero but basically they are something you move onto the board with a 25point HQ and drop in cover and never move in order to utilize them. Arguably they are cheap in this regard because its only 35pts a model but they only have BS3 and that's a big no go in most lists.

Hands down the best GK anti tank is the psycannon but then you are forced into a 24' bubble to really benefit from it.

It's an IG Hydra for 60 points more, sure--but it's also Strength 8, not strength 7. It's BS:4, not BS3. It can move and fire all of those guns, instead of having to give up half when it moves. It also has a great psychic-defense ability in Reinforced Aegis

It does lose the rule about ignoring skimmers-moving-fast and turboboost saves, which is something, but it adds quite a bit on top of the Hydra. Certainly, the Hydra is a very good tank for its cost, but the Psyrifle Dread is also an excellent vehicle for its cost. You more than get what you pay for.

[Denied]

It's an IG Hydra for 60 points more, sure--but it's also Strength 8, not strength 7. It's BS:4, not BS3. It can move and fire all of those guns, instead of having to give up half when it moves. It also has a great psychic-defense ability in Reinforced Aegis

It does lose the rule about ignoring skimmers-moving-fast and turboboost saves, which is something, but it adds quite a bit on top of the Hydra. Certainly, the Hydra is a very good tank for its cost, but the Psyrifle Dread is also an excellent vehicle for its cost. You more than get what you pay for.

I don't disagree at all, I mean the list I have been running with has two in it and they perform very well. I just wish they were a little cheaper cause every time I take it I am like "Damn that's an expensive Hydra" lol :-P

[DarkLink]

You really wish that they were cheaper?

A Hydra does one, and only one thing: Shoot vehicles. It's only BS 3, it's only str 7, which combined almost cancels out the advantage you get for ignoring cover saves. It doesn't have Reinforced Aegis. It doesn't have side armor 12. It's not a walker, so it can't move and shoot well and it's much easier to kill in CC. It doesn't have Fortitude. You can't use it to tie up enemy units in assault.

A Psyrifle Dread is a fantastic deal. Hydras are fantastic deals. But they are very apples and oranges.

[wolflold]

Warp rift is not a good anti tank power! Yes you hit and score a penetrating hit, BUT you got a AP of 0 so thats a -1 on the roll and only on a six you destroy something. Its only good if you realy got no other choice, otherwise go for the /whatever cannons.

[DarkLink]

I'm pretty sure that autopenning, even with a -1 on the chart, is better than just about any other AT gun in the game aside from a melta weapon. Not exactly what I'd call a bad AT weapon, even if you just damage their units.

[Xas]

who would have thought that marines with s7 assoult cannons everwhere, "base strenght 5", thunderhammers everywhere, a HQ that turns everyone of them into a hive tyrant (might of titan), s8 rifledreads and normal access to lascannons for long range duty on landraiders and dreads would be good againstvehicles?

its nice you did the work but I doubt anyone would be seriously thinking that GK lacked in the anty-armor department. Actually the only thing you could say they lack is massive long range firepower (some dreads, some landraiders, apes and servitors and very hit or miss orbital relays) and staying power for points value.

on the offence they are great. you dont want to be on the recieving end of a well planned and executed GK assoult (as in generall attack not just melee) regardless of what you are.