Dreadknight Doomfists

[doogansquest]

I didn't take much time to search the forum for this topic, so I figured I would post it here anyway and let the mods merge it, if necessary.

In Codex: Grey Knights, under the Nemesis Dreadknight rules entry, the book states that it comes standard with "WARGEAR: Two Nemesis Doomfists."

Proceed to the Wargear section and read about the Nemesis Doomfist, particularly the rules entry:

....A Nemesis doomfist follows the rules for Dreadnought close combat weapons.

That line is important, and thus I direct you to the specific rule in the rulebook regarding Dreadnought close combat weapons:

DREADNOUGHT CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS
...A Dreadnought close combat weapon is a power weapon and doubles the walker's Strength in close combat (up to a maximum of 10).

Since a Nemesis doomfist "follows the rules for," and doesn't just "count as," or "functions in the same way as," that means it's iron-clad.

My point? A Nemesis Dreadknight is not a Walker. It never functions as a Walker under any circumstances. It is a Monstrous Creature. The rules for Dreadnought close combat weapons state specifically that it "doubles the WALKER'S Strength in close combat..."

If we are to take this as-written, the Dreadknight is Strength 6 with the benefits of a Nemesis Force Weapon (ie: Force Weapon and Daemonbane), and the bonus attack for 2 CCW, but does not gain the benefit of double-strength. The weapon states that it defers to the BRB ruling on Dreadnought close combat weapons, which only doubles the strength of a Walker.

While some would argue that this makes the Nemesis doomfist a wasted Codex entry, that's just not true, as the Dreadnoughts and the Venerable Dreadnoughts come standard with them. As they are Walkers, they would gain the benefits of the double-strength rule.

I'm not here to be a turd about anything, but I found this whole thing rather awkward...

Thoughts?

[Dalleron]

It's like the old wraithlord. It had what the book called dreadnaught CCW's, more specifically 2 of them, so gained an extra attack.

I fail to see any confusion in the Dreadknight. Has two doomfists. So right there, it's got an extra attack, and it being a MC ignores armour. The walker bit in the DCCW reference means nothing, in my eyes. The DK is S10. Plus, it's cheaper that way, and with such a point heavy unit, seems good to me.

This leads to the old debate of RAW vs RAI. People are going to pick their side of the fence and not let you tell them otherwise.

[brazzangel]

Great, except there's nothing in the rules that allows it to be S10. Nothing. So it's not S10 until FAQ'd otherwise.

This isn't RAW vs. RAI. This is written plain as day.

A mistake by GW? Probably, they've been known to make a few. But it's not S10 as it currently stands, and there's nothing in it's profile, in it's rules description, or in the Wargear section of either the Codex or the BRB that changes that.

[brazzangel]

But he's not S10. The DCCW reference isn't just a reference. The entry specifically states that it follows the rules of a DCCW. By those rules, Walkers receive the strength bonus.

It's not about RAW vs. RAI. The whole thing states, plain as day, that the Dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature, and the Strength benefit is conferred to Walkers. Period.

It is not a S10 Monstrous Creature. That's all there is to it. Opinions to the contrary are just foolish looking and wrong.

Is this a mistake by GW? Absolutely. They've made these types of boo-boo's before. As it currently stands, however, the Dreadknight is S6.

[blackarmchair]

They are going to do a MASSIVE FAQ with this book. I noticed this too when reading through it, usually I'm a sticker for RAW (because we all need to be playing the same game to foster a truly fair competitive environment) but in some cases the intention of the ruling is so obvious we just have to let common sense dictate for us.

If the author did not intend the doomfist to double the Dreadknight's strength and give him all the normal benefits of a walker they wouldn't have written doomfist. As you said the MC already ignores armour in close-combat so the author didn't write it in to give the DK a power weapon thus we can only assume that either the author is not rational and simply haphazardly writes things - OR that he meant to give the DK all the abilities inherit to the doomfist.

RAW, you are absolutely right; the doomfists count as a pair of cc weapons and nothing more. But I think we all know what the intention was...

[SonicPara]

If the Dreadknight is S10 via the Doomfists then why is there the option for a Daemonhammer?

[Denzark]

Daemonhammer does different things against daemons? I1 after a successful wound? Something like that?

[Tynskel]

daemon hammers also have thunder hammer rules. You would still get the +1 attack, because the doomfist rules give +1 attack for each additional CC weapon.

There are plenty of things in the game that have eternal warrior and are NOT daemons. Knocking them to Initiative 1 can make all the difference.

Also automatically causing crew shaken is useful. Sometimes the Dice Gods hate you, and will not destroy the tank, but immobilize it, allowing the tank to still blast stuff.

[AngelsofDeath]

I didn't take much time to search the forum for this topic, so I figured I would post it here anyway and let the mods merge it, if necessary.

In Codex: Grey Knights, under the Nemesis Dreadknight rules entry, the book states that it comes standard with "WARGEAR: Two Nemesis Doomfists."

Proceed to the Wargear section and read about the Nemesis Doomfist, particularly the rules entry:



That line is important, and thus I direct you to the specific rule in the rulebook regarding Dreadnought close combat weapons:



Since a Nemesis doomfist "follows the rules for," and doesn't just "count as," or "functions in the same way as," that means it's iron-clad.

My point? A Nemesis Dreadknight is not a Walker. It never functions as a Walker under any circumstances. It is a Monstrous Creature. The rules for Dreadnought close combat weapons state specifically that it "doubles the WALKER'S Strength in close combat..."

If we are to take this as-written, the Dreadknight is Strength 6 with the benefits of a Nemesis Force Weapon (ie: Force Weapon and Daemonbane), and the bonus attack for 2 CCW, but does not gain the benefit of double-strength. The weapon states that it defers to the BRB ruling on Dreadnought close combat weapons, which only doubles the strength of a Walker.

While some would argue that this makes the Nemesis doomfist a wasted Codex entry, that's just not true, as the Dreadnoughts and the Venerable Dreadnoughts come standard with them. As they are Walkers, they would gain the benefits of the double-strength rule.

I'm not here to be a turd about anything, but I found this whole thing rather awkward...

Thoughts?

WHAT? Ok... So you posted this information and was expecting what in response? A Dreadknight is a Monstrous Creature and the Nemesis doomfist acts like a Dreadnought close combat weapon.....OK???

I just do not see what you are trying to point out here. Or what type of response you are fishing for.

[DarkLink]

Point is, Dreadknights don't benefit from the doubled strength as the rules are written. Dreadknights are not Str 10, because GW sucks at finding errors in their rules.

It's like the old wraithlord. It had what the book called dreadnaught CCW's, more specifically 2 of them, so gained an extra attack.

I fail to see any confusion in the Dreadknight. Has two doomfists. So right there, it's got an extra attack, and it being a MC ignores armour. The walker bit in the DCCW reference means nothing, in my eyes. The DK is S10. Plus, it's cheaper that way, and with such a point heavy unit, seems good to me.

This leads to the old debate of RAW vs RAI. People are going to pick their side of the fence and not let you tell them otherwise.

Irrelevant rules are irrelevant.

Wanna houserule it to follow old rules, or to modify the current rules to make it work? That's what most people will do, and what GW will do. But if you're playing by the rules, this argument doesn't work. Your choice, you just need to differentiate between "GW says Dreadknights are str 10" and "I say they are".