DE 1750 Any good?

[Cheese]

I find that a Clone Field tends to work better than the Shadow Field, but that's just personal preference. I just find they fail at the worst of times.
I think that if you want to run an Agoniser HQ, take a Succubus. She's cheaper overall, comes with the Combat Drugs, has a 4++ Invul for free that does not disappear after your first fail, she has a higher WS so that when you roll that 2 on Drugs models will be hitting on 5's as opposed to it being useless in most cases on the Archon and her Initiative is that 1 point higher, helping a tad with Sweeping Advances.
I agree that Flickerfields are wasted points on Raiders. I think that both Night Shields and Flickerfields are wasted on all vehicles, there's just so many other better things to take.
Razor Flails>Hydra Gauntlets generally. Can't be bothered to do the math right now, but I've seen it and even if you're rolling exceptionally well on the Gauntlets, it's hard to match the Razor Flails. The Gauntlets do, however, look much better, so if you don't mind that little bit less of a punch then the Gauntlets are fine. Wyches are also designed to tie units up though, so the Shardnet will generally work better. It's also worth considering giving your Syren a Venom Blade instead of the Agoniser because it still adds some nice punch, but won't kill too much, making units flee.

Don't go overkill with your Hellions. 15 is an unneccesary amount.
Haywire Grenades are also full of fail. I have used them on multiple occassions and anyone that is destroying vehicles with them has blessed dice. More Dark Lances is the answer.

[ShotDownMind]

No.

Succubus go with wyches or bloodbrides, archons go with things that need grenades (incubi or grotesques), and he is better because of the 2+ invul. Clone field is not better. HQ is about army build there, you are wrong on wargear, although archons with haemo/grots can use huskblade effectively on charge, still not better overall than an agonizer.

Generally I wouldent say flickerfields are wasted points, but there are generally better ways to spend those points. One raider with a flickerfield means the other 9 have cover saves. Nightshields have very limited application on fighters/bombers to some extent and anything you want to protect from bolters. Probably wasted points there...

Flails and Gauntlets are fail. They ARE worthless compared to shardnet. They ARE also a worthless investment in time to debate, use wyches, know the answer...

Haywire grenades are the opposite of fail, they are pretty awesomely cheap and reliable anti-tank weapons. You are crazy.

[Cheese]

No.

Succubus go with wyches or bloodbrides Not completely true., archons go with things that need grenades (incubi or grotesques) I do see what you are getting at here, I'll give you that one., and he is better because of the 2+ invul No. the 2+ save will generally fail within 6 rolls, and potentially on the first. The problem with this is that once it's gone, it's gone for good leaving him exposed with only a 5+ save to save him.. Clone field is not better I didn't say better, I said more reliable, better in my opinion.. HQ is about army build there, you are wrong on wargear, although archons with haemo/grots can use huskblade effectively on charge, still not better overall than an agonizer A S6 power weapon causing instant death is not better than an Agoniser? I will admit that the S3 is not great, but this is why I give him a venom blade as well in case he happens to run into a tough opponent, like a Daemon Prince..

Generally I wouldent say flickerfields are wasted points, but there are generally better ways to spend those points That's what I meant by waist of points.. One raider with a flickerfield means the other 9 have cover savesYou should be going Flat out 1st turn, so they all should have a 4+ cover save no matter where they are. After they drop off their load, their job is essentially done. Any more turns alive is just a bonus. . Nightshields have very limited application on fighters/bombers to some extent and anything you want to protect from bolters. Probably wasted points there... I agree.

Flails and Gauntlets are fail. They ARE worthless compared to shardnet. They ARE also a worthless investment in time to debate, use wyches, know the answer... I would agree that Shardnets are better, but some people have different playstyles. For those that like killing more (not what wyches excel at) Flails>Gauntlets.

Haywire grenades are the opposite of fail no., they are pretty awesomely cheap and reliable anti-tank weapons. You are crazy. They're not that cheap. It's 20 points per unit here, with 2 units he's sinking 40 points into Haywire Grenades. Due to mobility, Haywires will usually be hitting on 4's, if not 6's, so that's only 5 hits that are likely to do very little. Think of the many vehicles ignoring your Crew Shaken and Stunned results. Now, if you do in fact manage to make the vehicle explode, it'll kill half of your unit. If it's got troops in it, they'll easily gun you down. If it doesn't have troops in it, you'll just get shot from elsewhere and most likely do very very little to the vehicle. Good job wasting your 170 points unit for shutting down a single vehicle for 1 turn

[BlindGunn]

Actually, you're not going to blow up vehicles very often with Haywire. Most of the time, you're Glancing - forcing -2 on the dice roll. Vehicles will only explode IF:
- You roll a 6 to Penetrate instead of Glance
- You then roll a second 6 on the damage table.

(Math Wizes: Is the probability 1/6 * 1/6? - been out of school way too long!)

As to Haywire being Wasted points - it depends on who or what setting you're playing in.

- While SOME vehicles ignore Shaken and / or Stunned - not all do. In a tournament setting, you can probably expect to see many that are not immune.
- While you should try to destroy Dreadnoughts and other walkers with Long-Ranged fire, it's not always possible (bad dice rolls, too many LOS blocked by vehicles, etc).

I lost games because of Walkers and vehicles keeping me from objectives or tying up my forces. Once I started using Haywire and destroying walkers and vehicles with them, my success rate went up. That's proof to me. (I also use Photon Grenades on Tau which everyone is disdaneful of and have successfully driven back and defeated Assault Marines that way multiple times by limiting their attacks and overwhelming them. Doesn't work for everyone, but it seems works for me.)

If 20 points on a 10-man Wych squad is a waste to you, that's fine. You have a technique that works for you, great!
Nothing I can say is going to make you change your mind. As a testimonial, Haywire Grenades have saved my bacon and claimed a number of Dreads and vehicles in multiple games. At over 100 points for a typical Dread, plus other unit(s) that a single squad of Wyches can then assault and destroy, not to mention denying Kill points for, I can afford the 20 points to make my wyches more versatile.

My advice to everyone regarding all things 40k: Try it out - see if it works for you or not. Try multiple times!!! If not working for you - don't use it!

[Cheese]

So you manage to get enough 6's on your to-hit rolls to regularly destroy Dreadnoughts? Can I have your dice?

[Wolf Brother Hellstrom]

sorry cheese i have to disagree with you also. Haywires work. even if you dont get the penetrate you are more likely to get a stun or weapon destroyed which is almost as good especially when we are talking about armor 14(ie land raiders, monoliths) 20 points taking out 150-250 points models equals a win in my book.

[TheRise]

Haywires are great for thier points cost!
1 unit of 10 whyches:
Pen = 16.6%
Glance = 66.6%

For 2 points that si great. And personaly I prefer Wrecked to Exploded most of the time.
And these are one of the few things that can destroy Monoliths, without wasting loads of shots on it.

[BlindGunn]

So you manage to get enough 6's on your to-hit rolls to regularly destroy Dreadnoughts? Can I have your dice?

When you're rolling enough dice, you can. I usually get 1 or two 6's a turn with 10 Wyches in CC (Not great, but not bad odds). All you need to do is immobolize the Dread once and then you're hitting it regularly after that. I also usually take Shardnets to reduce number of swings back against me.

I have destroyed them once or twice with a Penetrate followed by either Wrecked or Exploded (the Exploded wasn't too bad - already down to 2 wyches left in the unit. Increadably lucky roll.)

[FallingCalamity]

so much great info as a side note once the razerwing comes out I want to take one insteed of a ravnger do you think that would be a good move?

[thecactusman17]

BlackArmChair, for future reference I find that listing the point cost total for a unit or force org without dividing is more than sufficient to avoid trampling on GWs or anybody else's toes. In your example, 9 hellions (one of which is a Helliarch with an Agonizer) and the Baron comes out to 274 points.

I run large squads of hellions for two simple reasons: It looks awesome, and also it really helps to spread the wounds out when you fail to get that all-important cover save. They are also then capable of spreading way out and multi-charging several units, which helps them stick in CC for an extra turn.