Grey knights..rhino or razorback

[Brandoncbaker]

Ive been building a Grey Knights army using Crowe and purifiers. I was wondering if I should use Razorbacks even though the weaponry is expensive and HBolters even with Psy Ammo is kind of meh. I was thinking slightly lager squads would be better,and I could take advantage of the Rhinos firing points with some Psycannon goodness. .so what does the noble BoLS forum think? Thanks ahead of time for any input..

[Sinistermind]

purifiers go in rhinos or an assualt vehicle(Raider/Raven).

in most of my builds i run 2 squads of 8 in a rhino with1 hammer 2 psycannons 5 halberds, with crowe or without him these units constantly over-perform when handled with care

[Sonikgav]

I run 2x10 in Rhinos and 1x5 in a Razorback with Inquisitor.
S6 at 36" can be semi usefull to take out or slow light vehicles, transports etc or at least remove weapons/immobilize targets that you're Dreads aren't pegging. Grey Knights appreciate that little bit of extra range.

There's no point paying for Psybolt Assault Cannons etc because at that point take a Rhino and let the passengers shoot out.

[plawolf]

I would go with razorbacks. HB razors with psybolt don't cost that much, and S6 heavy bolters is nothing to sniff at.

The problem with rhinos is that if you are within psycannon range, you really want to get into combat instead of doing drive-bys when you are paying so much for purifiers.

In addition, even if you find yourself in a situation where you want to just shoot instead of assault, you will find that having your entire squad shooting stormbolters and psycannons is better than just a couple of guys shooting psycannons (especially when a full 10 men purifier squad can have up to 4 psycannons - if you stay in the rhino, you are loosing 50% of your psycannon shots alone!). Add in the S6 shots from the razorback itself and the difference in firepower really is quite significant.

Having said that, I do find that having a mixture of the two is often better than spamming either one type, especially with 10 men purifier squads.

I personally prefer a ratio of about 2-1 between razorbacks and rhinos in PA heavy GK lists. I would combat squad one 10 men strike squad into a CC and shooty element, with the two psycannons going in the rhino to do drive-bys while the CC half sit in a razorback ready to act as a sacrificial speed bump when needed. The rest of the squads remain as full 10 men blocks and advance on foot behind the wall of transports.

This way, you have the benefit of additional firepower from the razorbacks, while still retaining the potential to transport a full 10 men squad around if you need to. The last part is especially useful, because you do not want to feel the irony of having a working razorback and the time to hop a squad into it and drive up for a last turn objective grab/contest only to realize you have too many guys left alive in your squad to fit them into the bloody razorback.

[DarkLink]

There's no point paying for Psybolt Assault Cannons etc because at that point take a Rhino and let the passengers shoot out.

Unless you get out and walk, and then you have a lot of extra firepower. Just because you can get in a transport doesn't mean you have to.

[AbusePuppy]

Grey Knights- and especially Purifiers- should be operating from outside their transport. You're paying 25%-75% more than other Marine armies are to get good stuff like Storm Bolters and Force Weapons; if you're just sitting inside a box not using them, you're a regular Marine army with fewer models.

For this reason, Razorbacks are often the default choice, either Heavy Bolter or Assault Cannon, always with Psybolt Ammo. Three S6 shots may not sound like a lot, but when you bring 6-12 of them, they suddenly become very difficult to deal with, as every one of them is a threat to both tanks and infantry. The "fake Psycannon" version is much more dangerous thanks to higher strength and Rending, but also more expensive- you won't be able to field as many of them and thus are more vulnerable to just having your gun blown off and getting ignored.

The basic idea with Razorbacks is that you move forward 6" or 12" on the first turn, popping smoke if appropriate, and disembark in range to shoot the enemy. Now you face them with a huge number of targets, both infantry and vehicle, and press the enemy to deal with every one of them because everyone of them is a threat to their models.

Rhinos, on their own, are not amazing choices as they can't create this duality of threats. However, they are useful if you are running a mix of squads (i.e. some Purifiers and some Strike Squads, the former obviously 5man and the latter 10) and they can mix well into a Razor-heavy force as someplace to hide weakened units that still have a Psycannon left without making the unit unable to participate in the fight.

[plawolf]

What point level are you playing at to get 12 razorbacks on the field?

AssCan razorbacks are a crappy deal for Grey Knights, sure the 'twin-link psycannons' are awesome, but it's bloody expensive and offers no range advantage over your infantry.

If you are running purifier spam, it's far cheaper and more effective to buy 5 men twin psycannon purifier squads, shove them in a rhino and shoot two psycannons instead of one twin linked one for half the points of a psycannon razorback.

Twice the potential firepower at half the cost, and even if you get a weapons destroyed, you only loose a storm bolter with the rhino instead of your expensive twin-link psycannon on the razorback.

[DarkLink]

TL psycannons are awesome. Nevermind the short range, 30" is plenty so long as you've got a couple psyrifle dreads backing your army up.

The only time I've ever had a real range issue with Grey Knights is against Battlewagon Orks. Only your psycannons can really hurt the Battlewagon, and thanks to Ghaz the assault range is so large that if your psycannons are in range then you're probably in assault range as well. Psyrifle Dreads can't help you much with AV 14. But not many lists fall into that category, and I've never had a problem making it work elsewhere.

And again, if you have two psycannons on your purifiers on foot, and a razorback with a TL psycannon, you have a massive increase in ranged firepower for a mere 45pts. The list, as a whole, puts out so much extra firepower that it doesn't matter that much if your vehicles are more expensive.

That's not to say that you should take nothing but psycannon razorbacks, but you're foolish to dismiss them.

What point level are you playing at to get 12 razorbacks on the field?

3++ authors in general are obsessed with MSU. If a list doesn't have as many vehicles as physically possible, thumbs down. Don't worry, though, there are plenty of other ways to go and be plenty competitive. I've played and seen plenty of games with 3-5 Rhinos at 1750-2000pts with a winning record at some pretty large tournaments. In fact, I've seen very few MSU lists at the top tables.

[plawolf]

TL psycannons are awesome. Nevermind the short range, 30" is plenty so long as you've got a couple psyrifle dreads backing your army up.

The only time I've ever had a real range issue with Grey Knights is against Battlewagon Orks. Only your psycannons can really hurt the Battlewagon, and thanks to Ghaz the assault range is so large that if your psycannons are in range then you're probably in assault range as well. Psyrifle Dreads can't help you much with AV 14. But not many lists fall into that category, and I've never had a problem making it work elsewhere.

And again, if you have two psycannons on your purifiers on foot, and a razorback with a TL psycannon, you have a massive increase in ranged firepower for a mere 45pts. The list, as a whole, puts out so much extra firepower that it doesn't matter that much if your vehicles are more expensive.

That's not to say that you should take nothing but psycannon razorbacks, but you're foolish to dismiss them.

You are only looking at theoretically max firepower assuming all your razorbacks get into range intact. But how likely is that in reality?

Razorbacks are hardly the most durable of vehicles. Unless you go all psycannon razorbacks, your enemy should have little difficulty immobilizing or weapons destroying your psycannon razorbacks early in the game before they could do much.

If you do go all psycannon razorbacks, those 45pts start adding up fast. Upgrade 3 razorbacks to psycannon is enough points for another 5 men purifier squad with psycannons if you throw in another 5pts. 4 upgrades is enough for a 5 men purifier squad with a razorback of their own.

Put in another way, you will be giving up 20% of your troops in order to give their transports psycannons that can be destroyed very easily. No one disputes that twin-link psycannons are amazing, but that does not mean spending 45pts to upgrade an AV11 vehicle with them is a good investment.

Psybolt HB razorbacks offer the three-fold advantage of being cheaper, giving you an important 12" range boost and the tendency for opponents to underestimate them, thus increasing the chances that they would be around long enough to make a useful contribution.

Unless you are going extreme MSU to spam as many psycannon razorbacks as you could, in any normal list, when are you only looking at maybe 2 or 3 razorbacks max, it is not really worth it to upgrade them with psycannons.

[DarkLink]

You realize that I commonly play either a unit of 5 Purifiers in a Razorback (which gets a TL psycannon if I have the points) and/or a larger unit of Purifiers in a Rhino. So I can tell you, with absolute certainty, that yes, it is worth the upgrade. Nor did I, if you look at my last post, recommend an extreme MSU army with all TL psycannon razorbacks. I'm speaking from experience, not theory. I've played it both ways, and both are good options.