Deep strike and Combat squads

[Tynskel]

Well, if this one's doing the rounds again, this is what clarifies it for me; SM faq

Q. If I have two or more special characters that exchange
the rule Combat Tactics for another one, when must I
decide which to use? Does it have to be on the army list or
can I decide before each game? (p51)
A. Decide before each game starts. You will need to let
your opponent know once the mission and deployment
type have been decided but before any units have been
deployed.

Even GW think that deployment is done in the deployment phase.

Agreed, but their FAQ for Combat Squads contradicts this.

[wkz]

Well, if this one's doing the rounds again, this is what clarifies it for me; SM faq

Q. If I have two or more special characters that exchange
the rule Combat Tactics for another one, when must I
decide which to use? Does it have to be on the army list or
can I decide before each game? (p51)
A. Decide before each game starts. You will need to let
your opponent know once the mission and deployment
type have been decided but before any units have been
deployed.

Even GW think that deployment is done in the deployment phase.

Note:
- Deploying units is different from deploying an army. But this note is moot, because...

- the bolded point in the quote above suggests that DEPLOYMENT TYPE and deployment of units are separate things. BUT it says nothing about the deployment of units itself... all it says is "before you put down any units, decide your chapter tactics"

- The above FAQ does not say ANYTHING about when you deploy after the deployment type is decided. i.e. I can argue that BOTH acts of (a) putting a unit on the table in pre-game AND (b) putting a unit at turn 5 are BOTH "units have been deployed", and both actually happens after deployment type have been decided.

Also, explain this:
Deepstrike, paragraph 1 last sentence, pg 95: "...Roll for arrival of these units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy them as follows."

If deployment is strictly done in "Turn 0", why such wording for deepstrike?

[Tynskel]

you should look up the previous forum post about combat squads.

My point of view is essentially such that deploy has two different meanings between in-game and pre-game.

Pre-game, deploy has the strategic meaning: there isn't movement, and everything is positions, on or off the board, for strategic purposes.

In-game, deploy has a tactical meaning: moving is directly involved. Everything is being redirected for immediate tactical advantage.

Completely different rules associated with the word deploy between in-game and pre-game.

[wkz]

Ah, I get it, you guys are arguing in a context I'm not in, using some conversation history I have no idea about...
...
??!??!??

"Deploy" is "deploy" dude, stop making it so complex. There's a reason why Combat Squads works the same when you put models in your deployment zone in "Turn Zero" and when you put models from the table edge in turn 5. True, you have to use the unit's "move" (or other movement skills/abilities, such as Deepstrike) in order to get onto the table in Turn 5, but the act of "deploying" (make a unit exist on the table) is the same in both cases.

And before we start, units in a transport exists in a "Schroedinger's funky existence" state (seriously, wtf? NOTHING can affect them?!?), but for all intents and purposes they're deployed into the game when their transport hits the table...

If there's such a big difference between both types of "deploy", Combat Squads as a rule will cease working in either one or the other. You either wouldn't be able to combat squad when you're deploying devastators in "Turn 0", or you wouldn't be able to combat squad a deepstriking Assault squad, for example... and that is clearly wrong.

[Tynskel]

you should look up the definition of deploy. There are tons. Split between tactical and strategic meanings.

The rulebook does not define 'deploy', therefore you would use the context of the situation to aide defining deploy.

Once again, (I say this, because I have said this on this topic a lot already) if you read the forums, combat squads the uses the strategic meaning of deploy, especially since the drop pods usage is similar to pre-game use (strategic), eg, pre-game.


This goes back to pointing out how the FAQ use of combat squads is basically dumb. The rule is to add flexibility to your squads, but the instant you take a transport, the flexibility becomes voided.

[wkz]

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Ok. This I got to disagree with you Mr T (even when we used different paths to reach the same conclusion).

Basically, you're saying there's different meanings to "deploy", thus some things work for some rules, and other things don't work even with the same word?


So, I should kit out my Space Marines with miniaturized Nerf-gun bullets, because in most meanings of the word "Shoot", a projectile MUST be produced? Sure, there's all them dice rolling and all that, but unless those little plastic men can fling little plastic projectiles around, they're not shooting, so they can't shoot?

Similarly, when a unit is "destroyed" I should take those models and stomp on it until it is in pieces, otherwise they're not destroyed? I should remove from table and pack up every single model that is lost and "Not in Game" immediately back into its transport/storage immediately before continuing my game? Calling a WAAAGH actually consist of shouting WAAAGH!! At the Top Of Their LUNGS??

(Oh wait, all the ork players I know do that last bit anyways...)

Yes, there is the dictionary meaning of deploy. There are a LOT of meanings for deploy. But to use every single meaning of every single word, verb or noun when arguing the rules is approaching stupidness. YES, we move the models. NO we do not lose our homes when that happens ([URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/move"]go from one place of residence to another[/URL]). YES, we declare shooting. NO we do insult the opposing player's poor grasp of rules for every single unit we have on the table ([URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shoot"]to disparage, reject, or expose as false or inadequate; debunk[/URL]). YES units can fall back. NO we do not suddenly ask some random guy in the FLGS for help ("[URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fall+back"]something or someone to turn or return to, especially for help or as an alternative[/URL]")

And YES we [URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/deploy"]deploy[/URL] the models. No, deploy/deployment does not mean putting flying stands on your landspeeder ("to come into a position ready for use: the plane can't land unless the landing gear deploys"), nor does it mean changing the position of every single other unit/model on the table ("redistribute (forces) to or within a given area").

What a word ultimately means depends on its context: Deploy simply means what it does, but until the the context is derived I can simply say: "you're the first player, thus if you don't fly to Iraq to stand beside our troops you auto-lose in the deployment phase".

And the context is clear: The title of the entire bloody section is called "Deploy Forces". And we're playing a game with little plastic men, on a table full of cardboard and plastic. What "Deploy" means in the rulebook is clear: Deploy means "Put little plastic stuff onto the table". ANY action that "Puts little plastic stuff onto the table" is called "Deploying". There are no strategic, military or tactical meanings to this act. Just put your little plastic stuff ONTO the table.

After that, the restrictions of the word will make sense: You rolled "6" on turn 2. The act called "deploy" activates. Units declared inside transports need to be Deployed. They are Deployed on the table. Other Units enter via a rule called deepstrike. They too are Deployed on the table. Etc, etc etc...

Relax, Deployment is not that hard to understand, and you do not need to call up one of the real world Military/para-Military/mercenary organization to your FLGS and point guns at everyone just to play a game of 40k. It is, ultimately ONE single action game-wise, there is no strategic, millitary, etc... meaning to the word. When the game says "deploy" it really should only have one meaning unless specified otherwise (see: Game/player turns), and you really shouldn't read too many meanings into the word.

[SeattleDV8]

Yawn, your idea of what 'deploy' meant was incorrect, Tynskel.
You were, as you are prone to, overthinking it.
It really is very very simple.
You deploy when the unit hits the table,and all of the context in the rules back this up.
Most of the units will be deployed in the 'deployment phase' but the ones that have not are still waiting to be deployed.
The FAQ just makes it even clearer.

[hisdudeness]

SeattleDV8 and wkz....your going to get him started again. He has a different view of deploy that he will not change.

In the end I agree, a unit is deployed when it hits the table. This is the simplest way to look at it and causes the least disruption to the rules system.

I have seen his biggest reason for disagreement is that you cannot combat a squad if it is in a transport if placed in reserves. (i.e. a 10 man squad with a rhino in reserves.) [see post #35]

Even the the simple word of "instead" did not change his view. I would stop before this becomes another 200+ post thread.

[Tynskel]

Deploy has changes in rules between in-game and pre-game, where as destroyed and shooting do not.

That's the point.
There are changes in context too.
Therefore you must interpret how to use deploy.

My choice is to use the context of the rules. It is RAW. I am using the situation that the rules describe to appropriately use the proper definition of deploy.

[wkz]

Deploy has changes in rules between in-game and pre-game, where as destroyed and shooting do not.

That's the point.
There are changes in context too.
Therefore you must interpret how to use deploy.

My choice is to use the context of the rules. It is RAW. I am using the situation that the rules describe to appropriately use the proper definition of deploy.

Yup, I've set him off. Just as planned...

Here's the thing, Mr T: WHERE is this change in context written?


(good) Rules Writing 101 states that keywords are important in any ruleset, and most if not all the words in a rulebook does is to (a) define the keyword, and (b) define where it is used.

For example, MOVE is a keyword. It refers to (in 40k's case pages 11 to 14), FIRE is another keyword (pages 15 to 26), etc...

Any (good) rules will also modifications to the rules, by acting on such keywords. For example RUN (page 16) acts on the keyword SHOOT by saying "... units may choose to RUN instead of FIRING..."

And we come to the keyword DEPLOY. This keyword appears in page 3, 7, 13, 18, 45, 64, 72~73, 76~77, 82~84, 86~90 and 93.

...


...
Alright, Mr T, given your irritating tendency to ask your argument opponents for page numbers and direct quotes as proof, can it HURT you to even PROVIDE a single example?? Its right in front of me, in BLACK AND WHITE SENTENCE FORM, and oh so easily quotable to instantly crush arguments.
...
You're a bloody lazy, poor, sad debater that's for sure.
...

I think Mr Lazy T's main point of argument lies in the fact that the keyword "Deploy" is used in 2 different major context:
- With regards to deploying the entire army: "Before/During deployment", "who deploys first", "Deploy forces", "Both sides have deployed" etc.

- Here's the painful part: "Deploy" is also used in regards to Transport Vehicles, in 2 cases. "Each model is Deployed within 2" of... access points,..." and "emergency disembarkation - the models are deployed..." (page 64).
There's another "deploy" in page 64, but given that it is used for the Transport vehicle itself, the earlier meaning of "Deploy" would be the one used.


Now here's the thing: Mr Lazy T stated there are "tactical" and "strategic" meanings to Deployment. I would say he's using big words in the absolute wrong way, and causing confusion up and down *...
...but he is correct in the fact there are 2 meanings to the keyword "Deploy" (thanks to GW and their reuse-abuse of rules keywords. That's NOT good rules writing). They have the meanings Army Deployment, and Model Disembarkation.

* Strategic actually means "Strategy", the big picture. Tactical refers to tactics used, the "how to" to perform strategic goals. You can refer to any deployment as Strategic or Tactical... but in reality each and every deployment, with regards to armed forces, is done with BOTH in mind at the same time (especially in 40k) : Each little plastic man you deploy on the table is strategically chosen and tactically placed to perform a goal.

As said before in one of my earlier posts:

...If there's such a big difference between both types of "deploy", Combat Squads as a rule will cease working in either one or the other. You either wouldn't be able to combat squad when you're deploying devastators in "Turn 0", or you wouldn't be able to combat squad a deepstriking Assault squad, for example... and that is clearly wrong.

And now there are 2 meanings, so we use any rule which affects "deploy" for only for one, or the other...

So basically, my stance is still unchanged: Combat Squads is quite clearly referring to Army Deployment instead of Model Disembarkation. So apply the codex rule Combat Squads to any Army Deployment, and everything settles itself...

... My understanding of the rules only changed in one case: Droppods uses the word "deploy", but it is clearly in the context of transport vehicles' Model Disembarkation. Thus, droppoded units hitting the table CANNOT use Combat Squads. (unless I missed an FAQ or sentence somewhere)

As for Mr Lazy T's complaint about losing versatility... well... to put it mildly, it is a TACTICAL choice to choose between versatility (Combat Squadding) or mobility (Vehicular Speed), so work your STRATEGY around this interesting choice (which other more advanced, more "experienced" armies would kill to have, just saying) and stop complaining.