Plague of Plague Marines

[Patternmaker]

"Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 weapons, power weapons and any other wound against which no armor save can be taken....)

It' been discussed pretty thoroughly but I wanted to post the line that convinced me. Otherwise I would have argued against the Brother Mod and the others on the FNP interpretation.

Ironically i actually don't find the plague marines broken at all. They are ridiculously good, of course, but i find that an all-plague marine list is easy to beat. Power fists and other high strength/low ap weaponry claim their lives 40-100 pts at a time and it's easy to whittle them to nothingness (especially since i generally find many plague marine players in my area are dense in the head or obsessed with being more nurgly, and so tend not to make sound list-building decisions).

They are very good and maxing them out in a list is annoying, but their damage output will be negligible almost. Fire a few plasma cannons into them and watch them fold.

I concur with Emperor XIX statement. I play a Deathguard army and field mostly Plague Marines. I think you could put me in the "obsessed with being Nurgly" category. (It's fun) I think it's a possibility that those that are having difficulty with Plague Marines might actually be having problems with power gamers.

[Legionary]

Yes Plague Marines are broken. They should be T5 or FNP. For 23pts it shouldn't be both.

However, they're par for the course in the CSM codex. There's a reason that it's the powergamer's army of choice.

[Unclehomefries]

One squad of plague marines sitting on an objective in cover didn't die to two Leman Russes, two chimeras, two squads of melta vets, and a HWS with las cannons in two turns of shooting. Mind you the Leman Russes had been shooting at them for a couple turns longer. Went from a victory to a draw.

True story

[Limunpai]

Plague Marines play right into the spam game. Spamming plague marines along with terminators, obliterators, and HQ's in terminator armor (or the extremely powerful Daemon Prince) gives you a unified front of models that can't be harmed efficiently by bulk fire.

This synergy is really what makes plague marines a strong troops choice because it offers a durability level that troops choices usually don't have available to them. In addition, if you give plague marine squads personal icons, the termis and oblits can ride in on the plague marine tarpit to get in really close to the enemy really accurately.

In addition, the ability to take 2 special weapons without taking 10 men gives them the offensive punch that they would otherwise lack. I think this is really where they cross the line into broken. If they didn't have 2 special weapons until 10 men, they would be an extremely hardy troops choice that filled a cult troop niche. With the second special weapon at just 5 men, they give an extreme weight of valuable, never useless, special weapons that makes them too much of an ultimate selection.

[DuskRaider]

Yes Plague Marines are broken. They should be T5 or FNP. For 23pts it shouldn't be both.

However, they're par for the course in the CSM codex. There's a reason that it's the powergamer's army of choice.

Sounds like someone can't beat Chaos

I play Death Guard as my main army. Yes, Plague Marines are awesome. Yes, they are very hard to kill. Are they overpowered? No. An average army of Plague Marines is probably ALWAYS going to be outnumbered. In order to try a bring decent numbers, you're losing out on Elite and Heavy Selections. You have no Heavy Weapons, you rely on weapons that have, at most, a 24" range. If you're playing against an army that doesn't assault or play offensively, you're kind of screwed. Plague Marines are defensive in nature, going against a similar army and you're in for a war of attrition and a very long and VERY boring game.

So are they broken? No. Perhaps you just can't think of a way to play your own army to counter them.

[BrotherAlpharius]

I play against Plague Marines and I'm just building a plague marine force. I'm doing it because I was bouncing around fluff ideas and got a great idea that eventually, naturally, ended with a Nurgle force. I always choose armies on fluff and model looks/modelling opportunities not competitiveness. As such I've played my fair share of overpowered and underpowered lists (one of my other armies is non-mech Tau!). Also, forces rise and fall in power - I've been playing 18 years so I've seen many incarnations. Another two years and GW will decide it's time to sell us another Codex and we'll see Plague Marines get nerfed - probably about the time I'll get my Plague Marines tabletop ready!

I think the real problem with the current Chaos Codex is the freedom to mix and match without theme. I think a DeathGuard themed force with no heavy weapons, is sufficiently specialised not to be broken - lack of range and tiny number of models are serious drawbacks. I think the problem comes when an army consists of two lash princes, all plague marine troops and obliterators - no theme, just all game winning power.

[Chumbalaya]

Knock out their tissue paper Rhinos, Gork knows they don't have any other armored units worth worrying about.

[Legionary]

Sounds like someone can't beat Chaos

What nonsense. I collect Marines, Chaos and Imperial Guard. I have experience playing as Chaos and against Chaos. It is possible for someone to think the Chaos codex is a bit over the top without the implication they're bitter about losing to Chaos.

Sounds like you don't like Plague Marines; sounds like you just can't use them effectively.

[RocketRollRebel]

They are probably the best troop choice in the game but I would say that they still can die. Just don't rely in your small arms to do it. Shooting them with las guns is just demoralizing. "okay I hit you on 4's, wound on 6's and your get 2 saves... Crap". But Big guns certainly take them down, Vindys, Battle cannons ect ect. Normal close combat units have a hard time with them in the assault as well. But more elite close combat troops can still knock them down. Hit them in close combat with a unit of Blood Crushers or Blood Letters or Assault terminators. That would certainly wipe that smug diseased grin off of their face.

At the end of the day, yeah they are a tough nut to crack but it can be cracked non the less.

[PlaguedOne]

I don't feel as though they're overpowered. I tend to have issues being outnumbered. What annoys me the most though, are the players who cry cheese when I use nothing but Plague Marines for my troops. I've been an all-Nurgle player since 2nd Edition. It's not my fault people hate their current incarnation. And yet I still get flak for it.