Chaos is...back?

[BrokenWing]

Obliterators, especially enough of them to actually matter, are expensive as all hell, and so is the rest of their anti-tank. This codex was not designed for the world of everyone's in tanks and has a bunch of anti-tank weapons and does really poorly in said world. There's a reason I quit playing them and if you think that I intend to go to a bunch of tournaments and rack up wins with my chaos, you are sadly mistaken. I have other armies that do that.

[BrokenWing]

But on that note, I'll probably post another list in a moment.

[BrokenWing]

Don't feel like posting another one. Here's the thing, I can drop the Defiler and have 5 Obliterators for alot of anti-tank shooting...and then someone shoots them with high strength ap 2 guns and they drop like flies because that's what they do. Or I could take some predators, which are also massively over priced, or I could take havocs which are *amazingly* over priced. I just got done playing in a GT and almost every army list has 10+ high strength low ap guns to deal with Guard, Obliterators wouldn't last very long at all. The only viable alternative I see is a bunch of Havocs...and that's 35 points per lascannon and equates to 290 points for 10 guys.

[Bean]

I've been playing Chaos at tournaments throughout fifth edition, and I continue to do so--and I routinely win. I often use Obliterators. They are fantastic, even for their cost.

The Chaos Codex is certainly not the cream of the crop. It is, however, awfully close, and it can certainly bring sufficient non-cc anti-tank. Your list just doesn't, and pretending that it's the fault of the Chaos Codex just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

I, on the other hand, do know what I'm talking about. If you want a good Chaos army, play obliterators. Use Berserkers as your hammer unit. Use Daemon Princes and expect them to die. Fill out the core with plenty of CSMs or Plague Marines--don't bother with Noise Marines. There are good armies to be had out of the codex. You don't have to play them, but don't write a bad one, ask for advice, and respond to the inevitable observation that your list is bad with the assertion that it can't be helped. That's just silly.

[BrokenWing]

Perhaps if the advice was presented in a less aggressive manner.

Look I can play someone else's Chaos army all I want, but I'll be bored with it in 3 minutes, win or lose, it won't matter. I have an army with a rather long standing back-story, it plays a specific way, it has specific types of units in it and is organized along specific lines. It has alot of noise marines, it has alot of plague marines,it has a handful of Khorne warriors. The army you described would not be that army, I'm not going to play that. I'm perfectly willing to try and see if Obliterators actually work against all the AP high strength instant death weapons that are floating around there, and I probably will.

I will not however play your army, nor will I sit here and be half told that I'm an idiot and don't know what I'm doing. I've been playing this game for a long time, I have other really good armies, I'm just looking for a way to make a Chaos army that halfway works *and* plays like *my* army, not yours.

Denzark's style is similar to the format my army would run under, fielding long rang anti-tank weapons is good advice (and maybe you should go back and look at the first list I posted). Just because I post a list in here doesn't make it the be all end all of what I will actually field. These lists are to get me thinking about how I want to go about rebuilding the army of the faction I most enjoy in both GW game systems. I've been toying with ideas that would put in obliterators and a possessed Predator, I even toyed with a 9 Obliterator list before I determined I didn't want to sink that many points into them.

This thread is about having a conversation with myself as much as it is with having a conversation with other Chaos enthusiasts, it helps me bring in other perspectives. When those perspectives are presented in a kind and friendly manner I greatly appreciate them. When they are presented in a know it all, abrasive manner, I don't.

Try giving advice sometime without telling the other person their list is trash or they don't know what they're talking about, you'll be amazed at how people respond. People post lists on here that are rough drafts at best, I'd imagine half the time you don't see the final list they end up playing. Sometimes, it takes a long time and alot of tinkering to get a good army that plays along the lines the person enjoys, because the codex they're using does not particularly cater to it or they're just really new to using that particular army. In this case, an army I loved using for a long time was torn to pieces and I sold it off as a result. Now I want to get back into it, just because I really like Chaos. I have no plans of winning a thousand tournaments with it, I have no plans of making it my primary or most competitive army out of the ones I field until it gets a new codex, because this one just barely allows me to play an army I enjoy.

Finally, I don't take Demon Princes because their cost efficiency is horrifyingly bad. I could just take a Summoned Greater Demon for far fewer points and not waste an HQ slot. However, "summoned greater demon" is such a horrifyingly generic entry I can't bring myself to do it. This codex can't even go to the effort of naming the damn thing.

[BrokenWing]

After the GT with my Space Wolves and how pleased I was with their performance, especially considering I'd never used that particular army list before saturday, I was thinking about certain adjustments to my Chaos. I also agree with Bean's first post (and if he read my comments after my own first post, he would have been aware of this from the beginning) that I lack log ranged anti-tank and need to correct that on some level. In an effort to get some balance between Obliterators and more armor, I went this route:

HQ


Grand Praetor Romulus (Abaddon)- 275

Elites

4 Praetorian Guard (Terminators) with lightning claws, mark of khorne- 190

-Dedicated Pre-Heresy Land Raider with Daemonic Possession- 240


Troops

10 Noise Marines, 7 Sonic Blasters, - 270
-Dedicated Rhino

10 Noise Marines, 7 Sonic Blasters, - 270
-Dedicated Rhino

10 Plague Marines, Two Plasma Guns, Champion with a powerfist- 335
-Dedicated Rhino


Heavy

3 Obliterators- 225

Predator with all lascannons, possession- 185.

-1990

There's ten points to play with and I'm not entirely happy with no champions on the noise marines and I'm gonna be honest, not extra armor makes me nervous as all hell. I do rather like the Predator and Obliterators though. I've considered making my terminators and hq defensive rather than offensive by dropping the land raider and using deep strike with an icon or two, but I'm not particularly confident in that working. Also I rather like Land Raiders. I also really still agree with all the things that have been said about gearing for more close combat and would love to get some Doom Sirens in here somehow. Unfortunately I think dropping an Obliterator might rather damage their survivability. Nice thing is though I could probably pick up a pair of Defilers and run them in random pickup games without too much trouble.

[BrokenWing]

Ultimately though, nothing I put together makes me as happy as my old list or looks half as fun. Still committed to rebuilding, but really hoping for a new codex with the flexibility, variety and powerful HQs I so love about Chaos. By the time I get to buying models for this army, they very well may have a new codex.

Currently on my priority list above purchasing their models:

Buying my Airborne Grey Knight list.

Buying my Purifirer Grey Knight list.

Getting my Dark Eldar to 2,000.

Completing my 3 and 6k Fantasy Chaos lists.

Rebuilding my 40k Chaos to 2,000 points.

[Bean]

If you don't want honest advice, don't ask for advice at all.

Also, if you think Daemon Princes are bad in terms of return/point ratio, you really don't know what you're doing. Barring Kharne, none of the other CSM HQs even come close. But, hey. If you don't want to play a good army, that's your business. You're certainly not obligated to take my advice--I just wonder why you bothered to ask for advice at all if your goal wasn't to gather tips on making your army better.

[BrokenWing]

I asked for advice, not someone acting like I'm an idiot for not having an army the way they would play it. If you even read half of what I post in this thread you would see that I actually do have lists with obliterators in them, and that I do agree that I need more anti-tank.

The advice I'm seeking is someone saying "You should probably take more anti-tank because...."

not:

"You're an idiot and have no idea what you're doing, do this."

[Bean]

I asked for advice, not someone acting like I'm an idiot for not having an army the way they would play it. If you even read half of what I post in this thread you would see that I actually do have lists with obliterators in them, and that I do agree that I need more anti-tank.

The advice I'm seeking is someone saying "You should probably take more anti-tank because...."

not:

"You're an idiot and have no idea what you're doing, do this."

I didn't say you were an idiot, and I did tell you why you should take more anti-tank. Do you have any legitimate objections to my posts, or are you just looking for something to be irritated about?